# Biden forces schools and colleges to allow biological males to compete in women's sports **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2021, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098 "2021-01-21T15:17:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/101 "2021-01-21T21:37:37Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s a complicated issue which the EO just brushes over in a really simplistic way. Well, look at the document again in Jas09’s link in post #9: it’s a two-page statement about a general policy position, which AFAICT is pretty typical of Executive Orders. That’s not where you should expect to find details about grappling with the fine print. This Executive Order by Biden is about the same length as Abraham Lincoln’s 1863 Executive Order called the “Emancipation Proclamation”, freeing all enslaved people in the Confederacy. How’s that for an EO brushing over a complicated issue in a simplistic way?? But looking at Section 2 of this EO, I don’t think you need to worry that Biden is somehow railroading the authorities into drastic actions without consideration for the complicating factors. What he’s actually telling the Executive Branch to do is to review existing regulations and orders for compliance with this policy, and figure out plans for achieving compliance “as appropriate and consistent with applicable law”. > [@](#): > > It is the policy of my Administration to prevent and combat discrimination on the basis of gender identity or sexual orientation, and to fully enforce Title VII and other laws that prohibit discrimination on the basis of gender identity or sexual orientation. It is also the policy of my Administration to address overlapping forms of discrimination. > > Sec. 2. Enforcing Prohibitions on Sex Discrimination on the Basis of Gender Identity or Sexual Orientation. (a) The head of each agency shall, as soon as practicable and in consultation with the Attorney General, as appropriate, review all existing orders, regulations, guidance documents, policies, programs, or other agency actions (“agency actions”) that: > > (i) were promulgated or are administered by the agency under Title VII or any other statute or regulation that prohibits sex discrimination, including any that relate to the agency’s own compliance with such statutes or regulations; and > > (ii) are or may be inconsistent with the policy set forth in section 1 of this order. > > (b) The head of each agency shall, as soon as practicable and as appropriate and consistent with applicable law, including the Administrative Procedure Act (5 U.S.C. 551 et seq.), consider whether to revise, suspend, or rescind such agency actions, or promulgate new agency actions, as necessary to fully implement statutes that prohibit sex discrimination and the policy set forth in section 1 of this order. > > (c) The head of each agency shall, as soon as practicable, also consider whether there are additional actions that the agency should take to ensure that it is fully implementing the policy set forth in section 1 of this order. If an agency takes an action described in this subsection or subsection (b) of this section, it shall seek to ensure that it is accounting for, and taking appropriate steps to combat, overlapping forms of discrimination, such as discrimination on the basis of race or disability. > > (d) Within 100 days of the date of this order, the head of each agency shall develop, in consultation with the Attorney General, as appropriate, a plan to carry out actions that the agency has identified pursuant to subsections (b) and (c) of this section, as appropriate and consistent with applicable law. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/102 "2021-01-21T21:41:49Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > and there have already been examples of trans students setting new state records in women’s athletics Emphasis added. Trans girls. Transgender female students. Trans female athletes. Female athletes who are transgender. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/103 "2021-01-21T21:42:46Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I feel like Biden is choosing what looks good over doing the right thing, and girls will be the ones who lose out. And by “girls” you mean…? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/104 "2021-01-21T21:43:52Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Apparently, some asshole at The Federalist named Jordan Davidson, who AFAICT has no credentials in either law, biology, or sports physiology, but knows how to pander to anti-trans prejudice with clickbait hyperbole. Yeah, sorry but tht Op-Ed is just panicmongering to rile up people and probably was written and ready since early November just waiting to be put up whenever that particular policy was announced. As mentioned before, nothing in the text of the EO commands what they’re claiming it does. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/105 "2021-01-21T21:44:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And by “girls” you mean…? Apparently NOT the girls who couldn’t play on the girls’ team but now can. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/106 "2021-01-21T22:24:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And by “girls” you mean…? What term would you like me to use instead? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/107 "2021-01-21T22:25:24Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I feel like Biden is choosing what looks good over doing the right thing, and girls will be the ones who lose out. You feel like this, but you haven’t demonstrated this. The Federalist Society is barely more trustworthy than Trump himself. ---
**Author:** ![MustangSal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mustangsal/32/6327_2.png) [@MustangSal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MustangSal)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/108 "2021-01-21T22:35:51Z")
Why don’t we just do all sports like boxing. Heavyweights don’t fight lightweights. Take a rough approximation of each humans athletic prowess and put them in same league. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/109 "2021-01-21T22:43:37Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Today he signed an executive order banning discrimination based on gender identity in any educational institution receiving federal funding; **transgender students must now be allowed to play on whatever team they identify as, regardless of biology or hormone status.** …here is the entire text of the executive order. > **[Executive Order on Preventing and Combating Discrimination on the Basis of...](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2021/01/20/executive-order-preventing-and-combating-discrimination-on-basis-of-gender-identity-or-sexual-orientation/)** > > By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, it is hereby ordered as follows: Section 1.  Policy.  Every person should be treated with respect and dignity and should... It has already been linked to in this thread. Can you be specific and quote the section of the executive order that you believes supports the assertion I’ve bolded from your OP? > [@DemonTree](#): > > This is obviously unfair to women and girls - Trans women are women. Trans girls are girls. > [@DemonTree](#): > > This is obviously unfair to women and girls - biological males have a huge advantage in sports. I am a biological male, born a biological male and identify as male. Can you point out the part of the executive order that forces a women’s team to have me on their team? Were you talking about biological men, or did you intend to speak about transgender women? Can you point to the evidence that shows transgender women have **huge** advantages over “biological women?” Can you quantify those differences? Transgender athletes have been allowed to compete in the Olympics since 2004. How many medals have they won with these alleged **huge** advantages? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/110 "2021-01-21T22:47:07Z")
> [@MustangSal](#): > > Why don’t we just do all sports like boxing. Heavyweights don’t fight lightweights. Take a rough approximation of each humans athlet It’s easy to categorize boxers and wrestlers by weight because you only have two people squaring off against one another. It’s not as easy to divide team sports like football, which has 22 players on the field at any given time, by weight class. And even if they all weigh the same, men will still have an advantage over women. I think the only important question is whether or not transgender girls/women have an advantage over those who were assigned female at birth. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/111 "2021-01-21T23:04:11Z")
**Official Warning** : You will not return to this thread. Your contribution is not in keeping with the multiple instructions to keep this about the Executive Order as it pertains to students. I provided two Modnotes on this already already. **Odesio** , drop this please. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/112 "2021-01-22T00:14:33Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > What’s not okay, as per the Executive Order, is to just declare that transgender girls and women are automatically banned from participating on all girls’ and women’s teams, period. Isn’t saying they can’t be banned the same thing as saying they must be allowed to participate? Or is there some distinction I’m missing? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/113 "2021-01-22T00:18:25Z")
You are assuming that there can be no limitations whatsoever on this - that a mediocre player from the boys’ soccer team can go to the girls’ team, declare that he identifies as a woman, and immediately join the team unrestricted and outplay all the girls there. The Executive Order doesn’t do that. It doesn’t define what it takes for a player to qualify as a trans girl who can play on the girls’ team, but that doesn’t mean it eliminates any and all qualifications. It just means it leaves those decisions up to the people running the teams or leagues. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/114 "2021-01-22T00:28:04Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Isn’t saying they can’t be banned the same thing as saying they must be allowed to participate? Or is there some distinction I’m missing? Yup, you are, AFAICT. By my reading (but note IANAL), the policy means that you can’t make a blanket rule banning transgender kids from the sports team (or the restroom or locker room) of the gender they identify with, solely on the basis of their transgender identity. That would be discrimination on the basis of sex, according to last summer’s Bostock ruling. Does that mean that every transgender kid gets to determine their own competition categories entirely irrespective of their physical characteristics, and nobody may make any rules whatsoever to balance physical advantages and disadvantages for fair competition? No, there’s certainly nothing in the EO mandating that, and I doubt that anyone could stretch the interpretation of Bostock to mean that. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/115 "2021-01-22T03:02:42Z")
How does it do that? Discrimination based on sexual identity seems to be treating cis women different than trans women. If you let every girl try out for the basketball team but only transwomen who have met certain criteria, then that is prima facia evidence of discrimination which is illegal. If no one gatekeeps cis women, then one can not gatekeep trans women without discrimination. This would be trivial if it only involved playing time on high school teams. Due to Title IX it is much easier to get a college scholarship in women’s sports than men’s. For someone in the non football sports, the difference between being a mediocre player on the boys team and getting a full scholarship to the college of your choice seems likely enough motivation for some boys to try it. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/116 "2021-01-22T03:07:38Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If you let every girl try out for the basketball team but only transwomen who have met certain criteria, then that is prima facia evidence of discrimination which is illegal. Read the post one up from yours. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/117 "2021-01-22T03:12:53Z")
What does it mean that you can discriminate against transwomen as long as is not done solely on the basis of identity? Like only transwomen who are not any good at the sport can play on the girl’s teams. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/118 "2021-01-22T03:15:56Z")
How about, it means you can set limits on what medical procedures one has to undergo before they qualify for this status, much like the Olympics does. So the classic scare tactic of “But men will declare themselves to be women just so they can compete in women’s sports!” is revealed as the transphobic BS that it is. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/119 "2021-01-22T03:27:25Z")
How are rules balancing genetic ability and differences not discrimination? If the sport is for women, how would it be okay to say that participants have to meet some biological criteria? If a woman is someone who identifies as a woman, then things like natural testosterone levels and such should be irrelevant in women’s sports. Some women have testosterone in the range of 15 to 70, while other women have it in the range of 270 to 1070. How is it okay to say that women sports are only for women who meet a certain testosterone level, especially when that level corresponds to genetically XX people? Wouldn’t that be like enforcing racial discrimination by saying a sport is for anyone, but participants need to have skin melanin levels corresponding to white skin. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/120 "2021-01-22T03:29:55Z")
It sounds like this EO destroys woman’s sports the same way the ADA destroyed traffic safety by forcing taxi services to employ the blind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098.md?page=7)