# Biden forces schools and colleges to allow biological males to compete in women's sports **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2021, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098 "2021-01-21T15:17:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/121 "2021-01-22T03:47:53Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > What term would you like me to use instead? I think the losers from this executive order are “cis girls whose biology is significantly better adapted to sports than 99% of cis girls and who also have the ability to dedicate huge amounts of efforts to specific sports and who think they’re entitled to hold records and who might once in an extremely rare while find that a trans girl has a body better adapted to a specific sport than theirs and therefore don’t get to hold the record.” Or is that too long? This order affects a very small minority of girls. The majority of girls who are affected are trans girls. The much smaller minority of girls who are affected are cis girls who end up losing records to a vanishingly small minority of trans girls. Most transwomen and transgirls who compete in womens’/girls’ sports aren’t setting records. They’re competing with the bodies they’ve got, just like cisgirls are. This executive order apparently allows them to do so. Good show, Biden. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/122 "2021-01-22T03:48:50Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > How are rules balancing genetic ability and differences not discrimination? If the sport is for women, how would it be okay to say that participants have to meet some biological criteria? If a woman is someone who identifies as a woman, then things like natural testosterone levels and such should be irrelevant in women’s sports. ISTM that by your reasoning one could also argue that, e.g., age and weight criteria for competition categories “should be irrelevant in women’s sports”, but clearly there are women’s sports that classify competitors that way. > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > It sounds like this EO destroys woman’s sports the same way the ADA destroyed traffic safety by forcing taxi services to employ the blind. Yeah, this. A lot of people seem to be making a lot of fuss about what they imagine the EO will entail, without providing evidence for it. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/123 "2021-01-22T03:54:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > ISTM that by your reasoning one could also argue that, e.g., age and weight criteria for competition categories “should be irrelevant in women’s sports”, but clearly there are women’s sports that classify competitors that way. Age and weight are typically a way of separating competitors into competitive groups, not for excluding them. Are there any sports covered by the EO which actually completely exclude competitors from the sport based on age or weight? Perhaps there could be divisions in womens sports which are based around testosterone level similar to how weight is used in wrestling. Would that be discriminatory if there were women sports divided into separate groups based on something like testosterone level? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/124 "2021-01-22T04:38:59Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > rather than flip out at an order that requires agencies to review policies to make sure they are in compliance with anti-discrimination rules regarding transgender people we should all wait to see what actual rules get implemented? This strikes me as a good idea. And then, if there are particular implementations that cause particular problems, they can be addressed: by letters to lawmakers, protests, new elections, or hey, even by new ways to classify athletes (such as height or weight) whatever. > [@steronz](#): > > Jokes aside, I can’t imagine a trans woman would be happy being forced to play on the open team rather than the female team where she’d undoubtedly feel more comfortable. Also, if trans women do indeed have a reduced muscle mass from hormone treatments, it seems unfair and dangerous to make them play with the men. Basically, transwomen athletes are screwed whatever they choose. If they play with the men they feel untrue to themselves, and are likely at a disadvantage due to medical transitioning. If they play with the women they will likely face resentment, and possibly public scorn, as well. At least transmen who want to play with the other men don’t seem to generate controversy just by trying to play a sport. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/126 "2021-01-22T05:02:51Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeah, this. A lot of people seem to be making a lot of fuss about what they imagine the EO will entail, without providing evidence for it. Exactly. Why not cross the totally imaginary straw bridge when we come to it? It’s _not_ a issue, it is unlikely it will become a issue. IF and when it does, then maybe we can revisit the issue. We have straw man arguments, why not straw _bridge_ arguments? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/127 "2021-01-22T05:54:05Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Basically, transwomen athletes are screwed whatever they choose. This is true even without the adjective “athletes”. It’s just one more thing to beat them with for their “choice” of not conforming to the societal norms that some feel they should be forced into. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/128 "2021-01-22T05:54:49Z")
This isn’t just a bridge, this is a whole Chunnel made of straw. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/129 "2021-01-22T07:30:15Z")
> **[Biden calls for LGBTQ protections in Day 1 executive order, angering...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2021/01/21/biden-executive-order-transgender-lgbtq/)** > > The order set the stage for an administration that has pledged to pursue an ambitious agenda on LGBTQ issues. But it also outraged some conservatives who argued the order would threaten the rights of women. > “By stating the administration’s intention to follow Supreme Court precedent and federal law, at core all the newly-elected president did was lay out what the law is and agree, unlike his predecessor, to follow it.” > More than 16 states have policies that facilitate full inclusion of transgender students in high school sports and “and have for quite some time,” said Branstetter, a spokesperson for the National Women’s Law Center. “Last I checked, girls athletics did not vanish” from those states, she said. So… no actual problems in the 16 states where this has been implemented for some time already. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/130 "2021-01-22T08:29:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yup, you are, AFAICT. By my reading (but note IANAL), the policy means that you can’t make a blanket rule banning transgender kids from the sports team (or the restroom or locker room) of the gender they identify with, solely on the basis of their transgender identity. That would be discrimination on the basis of sex, according to last summer’s Bostock ruling. > > Does that mean that every transgender kid gets to determine their own competition categories entirely irrespective of their physical characteristics, and nobody may make any rules whatsoever to balance physical advantages and disadvantages for fair competition? No, there’s certainly nothing in the EO mandating that, and I doubt that anyone could stretch the interpretation of Bostock to mean that. But if a state looked at the evidence and decided to ban anyone who has been through male puberty from women’s sports competitions, wouldn’t this EO stop them doing that? And to all the people saying it’s theoretical or we can deal with problems when they happen, problems are already happening and they are not being dealt with: [https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/02/14/us/transgender-athletes-connecticut-lawsuit/index.html](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/02/14/us/transgender-athletes-connecticut-lawsuit/index.html) > **[Mediocre As A Man, National Champ As A Woman](https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-an-athlete-who-ran-ncaa-track-as-a-man-for-3-years-just-won-an-ncaa-womens-title/)** > > Insanity: The new NCAA women's 400h champ was on the men's team during her 1st 3 years of college. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/131 "2021-01-22T10:25:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Can you point to the evidence that shows transgender women have **huge** advantages over “biological women?” Can you quantify those differences? Transgender athletes have been allowed to compete in the Olympics since 2004. How many medals have they won with these alleged **huge** advantages? [There is a decent amount of evidence](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short) that suggests advantage remains even after medical intervention. As for a “huge” advantage? Depends what you mean. In the Women’s 100m in Rio, if you weren’t within 1% of the fastest time you didn’t make it out of the semis. In the final if you were 1.3% down on the winner you didn’t get a medal. All of that is well within the possible retained advantage of transitioned individuals who have undergone medical intervention. Never mind the fact that, as seems to be the direction of travel, there is a growing call for no medical intervention to be needed in order to be accepted as the opposite gender and be given access to that sporting class. (which seems to be what this bill is upholding) As for the fact that it hasn’t been seen widely, that may be true and if the records end up showing that, even with the maturation of the increasing transgender population now, no over-representation at the elite level is seen then the problem goes away. I think we are too early in the process to understand quite where this leads. That’s the potential problem ahead if precedents are set that moves women’s athletics away from a biologically curated protected group to a culturally curated one. Even more of a potential issue if the principle of zero medical intervention is upheld. I’m not sure how biologically female athletes feel about that. Not my class and not my problem to a great extent but those that see themselves as a part of that biological class do seem to have valid concerns. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/132 "2021-01-22T12:11:11Z")
There is some further [interesting reading here](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6391653/), which doesn’t seem to take a side, sticks mostly to the figures and is open on its limitations. Table 5 is interesting as regards the relevant performance drop between success and failure. [Here’s an article](https://journals.lww.com/acsm-csmr/Fulltext/2019/06000/Transgender_Policy_in_Sport,_A_Review_of_Current.10.aspx) from Sports medicine which soberly sets out the current state of play (or relatively current anyway) [and another here](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/346774077_Transgender_Women_in_the_Female_Category_of_Sport_Perspectives_on_Testosterone_Suppression_and_Performance_Advantage) There’s no real conclusion to be drawn other than it is very difficult to come to an objective decision on this which will be fair to everyone involved. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/133 "2021-01-22T12:43:46Z")
@Novelty_Bobble - yes those articles helps fill in how far from “obvious” it actually is. The Sports Medicine article mentioned the case of Mack Beggs - which is worth highlighting as it illustrates how the rules regarding transgender athletics are clearly NOT based on protecting cis-female athletes from perceived unfair competition. Mack Beggs was born female, identifies as male, and has been transitioning. He wanted to compete as a male in a state that has both male and female wrestling divisions (Texas), and as a person born female would presumptively have been at a disadvantage doing so. But Texas rules are that a High School athlete must compete as the gender of birth certificate. So he was forced by Texas to wrestle in the girls division. And has won his weight division at the girls state championship level now twice in a row. There was no reason to not let him compete as the male that is his identity other than the desire to discriminate for the sake of the discrimination. It is not always obvious what advantage there is or is not, nor given the complexities what is more unfair to whom … but the Beggs case makes it obvious that fairness is not the prime concern in many people’s minds when they set rules targeting transgender athletes. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/134 "2021-01-22T12:45:04Z")
Demon Tree, I suggest you explore this [**Human Rights**](https://www.hrc.org/resources/transgender?utm_source=GS&utm_medium=AD&utm_campaign=BPI-HRC-Grant&utm_content=441711248152&utm_term=what%20is%20trans&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIoNDj8cev7gIVEePACh2z4wwKEAAYASAAEgKHQPD_BwE) web site and read up on facts so that you can render an educated opinion and not an opinion based on stereotypical notions and social bias. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/135 "2021-01-22T12:54:36Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > There was no reason to not let him compete as the male that is his identity other than the desire to discriminate for the sake of the discrimination. It is not always obvious what advantage there is or is not, nor given the complexities what is more unfair to whom … but the Beggs case makes it obvious that fairness is not the prime concern in many people’s minds when they set rules targeting transgender athletes. My fairly consistent view on this is that the very highest levels of sport should be “open”. Anyone can compete and rise up through the ranks to reach the levels their naturally gained talent can achieve. In the case you mention there’d be no ground on which to discriminate. However, it becomes an issue the moment you attempt to ring fence a sporting class and establish separate categories with entry criteria that are, at best, ill-defined. I think the argument over the concept of what constitutes “women” or “female” sport is only just beginning. My pessimistic view is that it is pretty much insoluble without someone losing out. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/136 "2021-01-22T12:58:05Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > there is a growing call for no medical intervention to be needed in order to be accepted as the opposite gender and be given access to that sporting class. (which seems to be what this bill is upholding) False. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/137 "2021-01-22T13:02:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > False. which bit? I didn’t see anything in the bill that means medical intervention can be required but I confess I may have missed it, I’m no lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/138 "2021-01-22T13:59:21Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > which bit? I didn’t see anything in the bill that means medical intervention can be required but I confess I may have missed it, I’m no lawyer I’d certainly hope you are no lawyer. For one, you apparently don’t know the difference between a bill and an executive order. Here is what I said earlier; reading the thread might help alleviate your confusion: > [@Babale](#): > > You are assuming that there can be no limitations whatsoever on this - that a mediocre player from the boys’ soccer team can go to the girls’ team, declare that he identifies as a woman, and immediately join the team unrestricted and outplay all the girls there. > > The Executive Order doesn’t do that. > > It doesn’t define what it takes for a player to qualify as a trans girl who can play on the girls’ team, but that doesn’t mean it eliminates any and all qualifications. It just means it leaves those decisions up to the people running the teams or leagues. This isn’t a bill, this is a loose instruction to the people who come up with specific rules letting them know what underlying legal philosophy they should base their specific rules on. It really isn’t that hard to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/139 "2021-01-22T14:16:54Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I’d certainly hope you are no lawyer. For one, you apparently don’t know the difference between a bill and an executive order. Correct, I’m neither a lawyer nor a US citizen but I can read. > [@Babale](#): > > This isn’t a bill, this is a loose instruction to the people who come up with specific rules letting them know what underlying legal philosophy they should base their specific rules on. It really isn’t that hard to understand. And there doesn’t seem to be anything in the loose instruction that refers to a requirement for medical intervention in gender recognition for the purpose of sporting participation. > [@Babale](#): > > It doesn’t define what it takes for a player to qualify as a trans girl who can play on the girls’ team, but that doesn’t mean it eliminates any and all qualifications. It just means it leaves those decisions up to the people running the teams or leagues. Exactly, it leaves it up to people who may interpret it to mean that no medically defined restrictions are required. That option is definitely open to those ultimate rule-makers is it not? The wording in the executive order is not in direct opposition to it as far as I can understand. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/140 "2021-01-22T14:27:10Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Exactly, it leaves it up to people who may interpret it to mean that no medically defined restrictions are required. That option is definitely open to those ultimate rule-makers is it not? The wording in the executive order is not in direct opposition to it as far as I can understand. Gotcha, so we’ve gone from “Biden’s executive order destroyed female sports forever!” to “Biden’s executive order doesn’t strictly prevent someone else at a future time from doing something that might hurt female sports”. As noted above, > [@Babale](#): > > I prefer to base my policy preferences on the real world, not what would happen in Conservative Fantasy Land. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/141 "2021-01-22T14:30:52Z")
Somewhere in between “any male-bodied person can play women’s sports by just saying ‘I’m a woman’” and “no trans woman can ever compete in a woman’s sport” lies this EO, which, if the Obama administration is a guide, gives plenty of room to administrators to institute fair rules and standards that balance allowing trans women to compete with fairness in competition and safety for all athletes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098.md?page=8)