# Biden forces schools and colleges to allow biological males to compete in women's sports **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2021, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098 "2021-01-21T15:17:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/162 "2021-01-22T20:40:01Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Gotcha, so we’ve gone from “Biden’s executive order destroyed female sports forever!” to “Biden’s executive order doesn’t strictly prevent someone else at a future time from doing something that might hurt female sports”. This is completely false. I never claimed anything remotely similar to the first position. And the current scientific research strongly suggests transgender women retain a significant athletic advantage over cisgender women under IOC rules, and the NCAA rules are even looser, while several states have no hormone requirements for school sports at all. So I concede this EO does not necessarily enforce no gatekeeping at all, but on the face it allows states to have no requirements, which we know several already do, and Kimstu has agreed it rules out the only solution that (IMHO) doesn’t unfairly disadvantage cis women and girls. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Not all transgender athletes, whether male or female, are bigger and stronger than their cisgender competitors. So a blanket ban on all transgender athletes is discriminatory. That’s the wrong way to look at it. If I took performance enhancing drugs, I’d still be a poor athlete, unlikely to win any competitions. But that wouldn’t make it fair. And allowing only small, weak trans women to compete in women’s sports seems even more discriminatory and probably unworkable. I suggested allowing only those who have not been through male puberty, which is more common now with puberty blockers. Would that definitely not be allowed by the EO? By the way, I agree some states’ rules are based on transphobia and not science. It makes no sense to force a trans man to compete against women. But equally, I think transmen who have not yet started testosterone and female-bodied non-binary people should be allowed to compete against women and should not be required to declare themselves women to do so, and vice versa for transwomen. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/163 "2021-01-22T21:29:45Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > And allowing only small, weak trans women to compete in women’s sports seems even more discriminatory and probably unworkable. I don’t see anybody suggesting that “only small, weak trans women” should be allowed to compete in women’s sports, and that certainly wasn’t the solution I was proposing. The point is that although competition category criteria can be based on specific individual characteristics such as smallness and weakness, it’s discriminatory to base them on transgender status per se, because different transgender people have different degrees of smallness and weakness. > [@DemonTree](#): > > I suggested allowing only those who have not been through male puberty, which is more common now with puberty blockers. Would that definitely not be allowed by the EO? ISTM that coming up with policies that automatically ban certain categories of transgender athletes, solely based on their transgender status, is always going to be discriminatory in nature. IANAL and cannot pronounce on what specific policies will or won’t be found in compliance with the EO. But AFAICT, it’s counter to the nature of the policy to try to “pre-ban” groups of athletes based on their birth biology or developmental history, rather than on their characteristics as individuals. > [@DemonTree](#): > > It makes no sense to force a trans man to compete against women. But equally, I think transmen who have not yet started testosterone and female-bodied non-binary people should be allowed to compete against women and should not be required to declare themselves women to do so, and vice versa for transwomen. Yes, and it would probably make most sense in the long run to create competition category criteria based on the actual individual characteristics that significantly affect performance—age, size, androgen levels, whatever—irrespective of personal gender identity. That way we’d be looking directly at competitive fairness rather than trying to approximate it with gender labels. However, this may be getting off-topic from the thread’s focus on what this particular EO does or doesn’t imply about school sports competition. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/164 "2021-01-22T21:39:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I don’t see anybody suggesting that “only small, weak trans women” should be allowed to compete in women’s sports, and that certainly wasn’t the solution I was proposing. I thought that was what you were proposing, but I see I misunderstood you. We already discussed basing sporting categories on biometric measures in the other thread and concluded it was unworkable, as well as, again, prejudicial to (biological) women. > [@Kimstu](#): > > ISTM that coming up with policies that automatically ban certain categories of transgender athletes, solely based on their transgender status, is always going to be discriminatory in nature. > > IANAL and cannot pronounce on what specific policies will or won’t be found in compliance with the EO. But AFAICT, it’s counter to the nature of the policy to try to “pre-ban” groups of athletes based on their birth biology or developmental history, rather than on their characteristics as individuals. How is birth biology or developmental history any less a characteristic of the individual than age or weight? It is exactly the known and unknown effects of those on the body that are the issue here. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/165 "2021-01-22T21:52:18Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > We already discussed basing sporting categories on biometric measures in the other thread and concluded it was unworkable, as well as, again, prejudicial to (biological) women. Not to digress too far down a previous-thread rabbit hole, but IIRC all that we ended up agreeing on was that my specific hypothetical scheme for competition categories was unworkable, for a variety of reasons. That by no means disproves the feasibility of the general approach. > [@DemonTree](#): > > How is birth biology or developmental history any less a characteristic of the individual than age or weight? It’s an individual characteristic, sure, but it’s not automatically determining their characteristics as athletes, such as size, strength, age, etc. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/166 "2021-01-22T21:54:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Your first cite by no means proves there is a problem, other than three bigoted entitled bitches suing, in theory for their daughters, but actually because they are bigots. Of course such bigotry and ignorance _is_ a problem. Do you have any actual argument here? Calling women bigots and bitches is not an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/167 "2021-01-22T22:05:42Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Do you have any actual argument here? Calling women bigots and bitches is not an argument. While I don’t speak for DrDeth and don’t endorse his use of the terms “bitches” and “bigots”, I think he made the perfectly reasonable point that you haven’t in fact “proved there is a problem” by citing this lawsuit. As I said, everybody seems to recognize that there are bound to be glitches and conflicts in reconciling our traditional very binary approach to sports competition with the scientific realities of the not-fully-binary nature of sex and gender. The mere fact that somebody filed a lawsuit about an existing policy does not imply a definitive revelation of Oh Noes We Must Be Handling This Matter All Wrong. There are going to be various lawsuits about sports participation qualifications from here on out, whichever policy approach we take. This is a complex issue and the courts are bound to have a role to play in sorting out the ramifications. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/168 "2021-01-22T22:15:39Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Then in competition, athletes’ performance would be judged taking their handicap into account. So, for example, a less-advantaged athlete might finish a race behind a more-advantaged one but still officially win the race, due to the difference in handicap. I honestly don’t think anybody is going to be satisfied with an Olympic race where the gold medalist was the third person to cross the finish line. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/169 "2021-01-22T22:16:51Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s an individual characteristic, sure, but it’s not automatically determining their characteristics as athletes, such as size, strength, age, etc. They provide many advantageous athletic characteristics: significantly greater size, larger and stronger bones, broader shoulders, narrower pelvis, larger hearts and lungs, bigger hands and feet, stronger ligaments, more fast twitch muscle fibres. There are also differences that would be highly significant in certain sports, for example in punching power (males averaged 162% of females’ power and the worst male was better than the best female in a study) and hand grip strength (the average for highly trained female athletes only equalled the 25th percentile of untrained males). And age is far less directly defining of ability, especially in teenagers who are all going through puberty at different rates. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/170 "2021-01-22T22:18:56Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > on the face it allows states to have no requirements, which we know several already do So it doesn’t change anything? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/171 "2021-01-22T22:36:44Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > So I concede this EO does not necessarily enforce no gatekeeping at all, but on the face it allows states to have no requirements, which we know several already do As LHOD points out, this seems to be a key statement: your upset at this point seems to be that it does not explicitly prevent some states from doing what they currently can already do. It does not mandate that American educational institutions take a more restrictive approach that say, the IOC does. What actually would it mandate? Well the approach applied to Mack Beggs, referenced upthread, would be disallowed: categorically stating that birth certificate gender dictates how one must compete, in this case forcing a trans-male to compete against cis-females, that would not be okay anymore. And shouldn’t be. Reality will be complex and wise decision making is never something to bank on. There will be individuals like Beggs, and individuals born male who have had puberty delayed who then began hormonal transition to their identified female status, and those who have gone through male puberty and then transitioned hormonally fairly recently. The order does make clear that categoric consideration of all of those individuals as automatically unable to compete as their identified gender because their birth certificate stated otherwise is not okay. @DemonTree please review the articles @Novelty_Bobble linked. Again what you consider clearly established scientific facts across all sports applicable to all trans-athletes really is not so bright line. And as to specifics - do you have any issue with that individual who was born male, has had intervention to delay puberty such that male pubertal testosterone peaks have not occurred, competing as their self-identified female gender? Do you think the same exact considerations need apply to all sports? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/172 "2021-01-22T22:38:30Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I honestly don’t think anybody is going to be satisfied with an Olympic race where the gold medalist was the third person to cross the finish line. Apparently nobody’s satisfied with Olympic races now either, what with doping and medals reallocated after doping is discovered (sometimes years afterwards), and controversies about how high a testosterone level a cisgender female athlete is allowed to have, and whether one can be disqualified for being intersex, etc. etc. etc. Ensuring fairness in sports competition is complicated, even when people aren’t taking banned performance-enhancing substances, because of the great natural variation in many aspects of human physiology. We’re just starting to grapple with the fact that that variation includes the not-fully-binary nature of sex and gender. So yeah, working out the answers isn’t going to be simple or immediate. Expect a fair bit more headscratching to come up in the EO-mandated review of policy compliance. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/173 "2021-01-22T22:51:40Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > What actually would it mandate? It will force states that currently do not allow trans athletes to compete as their preferred gender to do so, which is fine for trans men who want to compete against men, but unfair when it’s trans women competing against women. So it will make an existing bad situation more widespread, and institutionalise it. > [@DSeid](#): > > And as to specifics - do you have any issue with that individual who was born male, has had intervention to delay puberty such that male pubertal testosterone peaks have not occurred, competing as their self-identified female gender? Do you think the same exact considerations need apply to all sports? I think they should be allowed to compete in women’s sports, unless and until evidence emerges showing unfair advantage. Whereas the advantages conferred by male puberty are so great, and so many are unchanged by hormone therapy, that I think the default should be exclusion unless and until there is evidence showing no advantage. And honestly, that is only likely for endurance sports. Give me some time and I’ll try and find the latest scientific research on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Ranch\_Dip](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranch_dip/32/5238_2.png) [@Ranch\_Dip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranch_Dip)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/174 "2021-01-22T22:54:00Z")
It’s interesting that THIS is what OP takes from what Biden signed off on. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/175 "2021-01-22T23:03:28Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > So it will make an existing bad situation more widespread, and institutionalise it. What about the bad situation of trans women who want to compete but are not allowed to do so? Do they not matter? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/176 "2021-01-22T23:16:05Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What about the bad situation of trans women who want to compete but are not allowed to do so? Do they not matter? This, along with other sex discrimination issues, is what the EO is specifically introduced to decide. People have the right to live as the gender they identify with. That’s the baseline. Transgender girls are girls, and transgender girls who want to play sports are girls who want to play sports. If transgender female athletes are on average significantly bigger and stronger than other female athletes, then yes, we’re going to have to figure out ways to accommodate that reality with fairness. But the EO decrees that we can’t just sidestep that issue by pre-emptively declaring that transgender girls, or a certain subset of transgender girls, don’t get to be considered girls. That’s discriminatory. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/177 "2021-01-22T23:16:39Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What about the bad situation of trans women who want to compete but are not allowed to do so? Do they not matter? I know it’s a difficult choice, but I think they need to decide between delaying medical transition and trying for sporting success against men, or transitioning and just playing recreationally. Trans men are already in this position practically speaking, as they know they will be under a disadvantage competing in men’s events, but not if they compete against women pre-T. In either case, nobody should be forced to identify as a particular gender in order to compete, the categories should be defined based on physiology rather than social gender. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/178 "2021-01-22T23:20:35Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I know it’s a difficult choice, but I think they need to decide between delaying medical transition and trying for sporting success against men, or transitioning and just playing recreationally. For MTF trans girls that would force them to undergo male puberty if they want to play sports. That does not seem like a reasonable requirement to me. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/179 "2021-01-22T23:26:17Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > do you have any issue with that individual who was born male, has had intervention to delay puberty such that male pubertal testosterone peaks have not occurred I do want to emphasize this case as increasingly American pediatric transgender specialty clinics are handling the offering the puberty blocking option as a standard of care, more often utilized as parents of transgender youth have become more supportive and accepting of their children’s gender self-perception. More and more transfemale students will not have ever experienced peak testosterone levels. > [@DemonTree](#): > > It will force states that currently do not allow trans athletes to compete as their preferred gender to do so You’ve already acknowledge that it in fact does no such thing, that some reasoned approaches to gatekeeping would be permissible. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Give me some time and I’ll try and find the latest scientific research on the subject. You may want to at least start reading what was already linked. Debating the complexity is beyond the scope of this discussion I think. I am also curious how big you think this problem is, the harms of this “unfairness”, vs the problem of essentially excluding transfemale students from participating in sports (unless they participate as a discordant gender identity)? Let’s start with the current reported numbers of roughly one in two hundred Americans identifying as transgender. More male to female so maybe a few more but still less than 1% of any school population of females will be transfemales. Now I’ll put on my pediatrician hat - I want ALL kids, teens inclusive, to be physically active, and team sports in particular have huge advantages beyond that. The vast majority of kids who participate in school sports are not stars. By definition of course. Most of the time the “advantage” able to be measured _might_ be of note at an elite level but is swamped by other coordination and practice issues at levels below that … which is the level that obviously most kids participate at. So your standard of proving absolutely NO difference that might theoretically advantage a transfemale teen athlete would exclude a large number of transfemale students out of any sport activities, _with significant harms_, in order to prevent a potential marginal advantage that would be of significance only for the student who is otherwise of elite caliber, which by definition is a small number. The greater _harms reduction_ is, by far, to err in the other direction as the default - to allow participation unless a significant advantage from trans-status is shown to apply in the specific individual case with regard to that individual’s treatments and sport. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/180 "2021-01-22T23:26:29Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > If transgender female athletes are on average significantly bigger and stronger than other female athletes, then yes, we’re going to have to figure out ways to accommodate that reality with fairness. But the EO decrees that we can’t just sidestep that issue by pre-emptively declaring that transgender girls, or a certain subset of transgender girls, don’t get to be considered girls. That’s discriminatory. It’s not declaring them not girls. The point is that we divide sports into male and female due to differences in physiology. So if we are no longer defining male and female based on physiology, that means the appropriate groups no longer correspond to male and female, but perhaps to ‘people who’ve gone through male puberty’ and people who haven’t. Because the reasons for having segregated sports have not changed. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2021, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/181 "2021-01-22T23:28:49Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > For MTF trans girls that would force them to undergo male puberty if they want to play sports. That does not seem like a reasonable requirement to me. See above where I said an exception should be made for those who haven’t undergone male puberty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098.md?page=10)