# Biden, the church and communion **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 30, 2021, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115 "2021-04-30T18:37:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/41 "2021-06-18T21:06:56Z")
The NY Times article says that it’s up to the local bishop or the Pope. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/42 "2021-06-18T21:07:33Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > BTW, how does this work with the local priest, assuming it passes? Is he required to refuse communion to Biden, or can he continue to do so? I think it’s up to the bishop of the diocese where a person presents him/herself for Communion. Which, in this case, would be Archbishop Gregory. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/43 "2021-06-18T21:11:48Z")
Absolutely. But denial of the Eucharist to someone who presents him or herself for Communion is hardly a “voter education or registration activit[y].” President Biden is incredibly highly visible, of course, and anything he does is political, but Catholics are denied Communion for all kinds of reasons. Being president, or holding other highly visible public office, doesn’t exempt someone who is a practicing Catholic from the rules of the faith. For the record, I’m with Archbishop Gregory and Pope Francis on this issue. I think the USCCB is making a huge mistake. Or will, if they vote yes on this draft and implement the proposed policy. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/44 "2021-06-18T21:14:04Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Absolutely. But denial of the Eucharist to someone who presents him or herself for Communion is hardly a “voter education or registration activit[y].” I was thinking more the statement they are making, rather than the actual denial (which they can’t even do themselves – it’s up to Gregory and the Pope. Anyway, I’m off to the bar. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/45 "2021-06-18T21:16:48Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Being president, or holding other highly visible public office, doesn’t exempt someone who is a practicing Catholic from the rules of the faith. - [Bullshit.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callista_Gingrich#Personal_life) > Callista Bisek met Newt Gingrich in 1993 when he was [House](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Representatives) [Minority Whip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_Whip) and she was working in the office of Congressman [Steve Gunderson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Gunderson).[[44]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callista_Gingrich#cite_note-44) Callista testified in 1999 as part of Gingrich’s divorce proceedings that the couple began a six-year affair in 1993 while Newt was married to his second wife, [Marianne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marianne_Gingrich).[[45]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callista_Gingrich#cite_note-CallistaTestifies-45)[[46]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callista_Gingrich#cite_note-46) Newt divorced Marianne in December 1999, and on August 18, 2000, Callista and Newt were married in a private ceremony in [Alexandria, Virginia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria,_Virginia).[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callista_Gingrich#cite_note-NewsBriefs-2) In 2002, Newt Gingrich asked the Catholic [Archdiocese of Atlanta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Archdiocese_of_Atlanta) to [annul](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annul) his 19-year marriage to Marianne on the basis that she had been previously married.[[47]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callista_Gingrich#cite_note-fls2002-47) Callista, a lifelong [Catholic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church), was instrumental in her husband’s conversion to that faith in 2009. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/46 "2021-06-18T21:19:33Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I was thinking more the statement they are making, rather than the actual denial (which they can’t even do themselves – it’s up to Gregory and the Pope. The text of the statement will almost certainly not mention the President. It will say that those who are cultural and political leaders have a special responsibility. It will talk about formal and material cooperation with sin. But it will not mention Joe Biden, or the Democratic Party. The statement will say that it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to cooperate with evil by working to make abortion legal, and that a Catholic in a state of mortal sin may not receive the Eucharist. This is not a new thing. I don’t think the tax-exempt status of the Catholic Church, or the Archdiocese of Washington D.C., is in danger over this. And I don’t think it should be. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/47 "2021-06-18T21:24:32Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > The statement will say that it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to cooperate with evil by working to make abortion legal, and that a Catholic in a state of mortal sin may not receive the Eucharist. I don’t really care what the church does about this. But, what has Biden actually done that could be construed as “working to make abortion legal.” Abortion _is_ legal. Biden had nothing to do with it, as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/48 "2021-06-18T21:25:00Z")
I’m not sure what your point is. New Gingrich is a loathsome hypocrite who cheated on his wife, absolutely. According to the Wikipedia article you cite, Gingrich later sought an annulment of the marriage he left to marry his current wife. I don’t know if he ever got his annulment, but whether he did or didn’t, how does that demonstrate that he’s somehow exempt from the rules? ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/49 "2021-06-18T21:26:47Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I don’t really care what the church does about this. But, what has Biden actually done that could be construed as “working to make abortion legal.” Abortion _is_ legal. Biden had nothing to do with it, as far as I can tell. Who knows. I suppose if you went back through his voting record as a senator, you could find a “yes” vote or two on something. Or public statements in favor of a woman’s right to an abortion. As I said above, I’m opposed to this statement by the USCCB. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/50 "2021-06-18T22:19:36Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > The statement will say that it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to cooperate with evil by working to make abortion legal, and that a Catholic in a state of mortal sin may not receive the Eucharist. I do not understand the theological connection between merely being the leader of a government which treats abortions as legal, and being in a state of _mortal sin_. (I realize **Saintly\_Loser** wrote, “working to make abortion legal”, which is more than merely being the leader) ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/51 "2021-06-18T22:44:53Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I do not understand the theological connection between merely being the leader of a government which treats abortions as legal, and being in a state of _mortal sin_ . President Biden is not just the executive of a government under which abortion is legal, he is an active supporter of abortion rights. He made (and kept) campaign promises to roll back certain Trump-administration regulations. > **[FACT SHEET: President Biden to Sign Executive Orders Strengthening Americans’...](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/01/28/fact-sheet-president-biden-to-sign-executive-orders-strengthening-americans-access-to-quality-affordable-health-care/)** > > The Biden-Harris Administration will open a Special Enrollment Period for Americans to sign up for health coverage and roll back attacks on the Affordable Care Act, Medicaid, and access to reproductive health care. After four years of attempts to... He’s promised to push for federal legislation guaranteeing the right to abortion should _Roe v. Wade_ be overturned, and to end the Hyde Amendment. So, according to some Catholic bishops, that amounts to public cooperation with grave moral evil. In other words, mortal sin. And a person in a state of mortal sin (whatever that sin may be) may not receive the Eucharist. [Here](https://sfarchdiocese.org/documents/2021/5/Pastoral_Letter_LetterSize_0501.1.pdf) is a link from which you can download in pdf form (sorry, it’s all I could find) Archbishop of San Francisco Salvatore Cordileone’s pastoral letter on the subject. He explains this much better than I do. Once again, for the record, I do not think denying President Biden Communion is something the Church should do. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/52 "2021-06-18T22:49:56Z")
And that they’re only singling out a Democrat, rather than the many prominent Republican Catholics who violate church teachings regarding mortal sins (like the death penalty), shows how meaningless and political this is. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/53 "2021-06-18T23:42:35Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > He made (and kept) campaign promises to roll back certain Trump-administration regulations. > > […] > > He’s promised to push for federal legislation guaranteeing the right to abortion should _Roe v. Wade_ be overturned, and to end the Hyde Amendment. But he has certain obligations as a President. He is obligated by an oath taken before God to uphold the Constitution. If his opinion is that the Constitution protects the right to abortion, that is compatible with an opinion that abortion is immoral and that a government is morally obligated to ban abortions. In his capacity as President he is required to put the Constitution first. I stress that the government is not facilitating abortions - that I could understand as being a grave sin. A king who sends his men to commit atrocities is in a state of grave sin. A king (without lawmaking power) who swore before God not to misinterpret the law, who is powerless to prevent atrocities except by misinterpreting the law, cannot commit a grave sin by _refusing_ to break his oath with God. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/54 "2021-06-18T23:52:13Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > President Biden is not just the executive of a government under which abortion is legal, he is an active supporter of abortion rights. He made (and kept) campaign promises to roll back certain Trump-administration regulations. They aren’t punishing him due to his personal stance on abortion, but rather trying to influence public policy. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/55 "2021-06-18T23:55:29Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Archbishop of San Francisco Salvatore Cordileone’s pastoral letter on the subject. He explains this much better than I do. - Can he explain why the Church covered up, aided and abetted child molestation for decades? Maybe the Church should clean it’s own house before passing judgement on others. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/56 "2021-06-18T23:55:45Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > They aren’t punishing him due to his personal stance on abortion Right, I was under the impression Mr. Biden was “personally opposed” to abortion. That is consistent with him [saying](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/02/18/bidens-stance-abortion-contradicts-his-catholicism/), of Catholic teachings, “I accept it in my personal life.” And with him saying, “Reproductive rights are a constitutional right. And, in fact, every woman should have that right.” ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/57 "2021-06-19T00:02:50Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Mr. Biden was “personally opposed” to abortion I pretty sure Biden has never had nor performed an abortion, so he should be pretty blameless with respect to the “sin” of abortion. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/58 "2021-06-19T00:19:56Z")
The big problem here is the disconnect between what one should personally do and what one should allow others to do as a matter of practice when in charge of civil society. I’m personally very strongly in favor of allowing abortion in most cases, but I absolutely would strongly advise against anyone considering it. The church seems to have no problem with politicians who allow for fornication; this is likely because they realize it’s a losing battle. The battle over abortion is still on-going though. It’s not necessarily hypocrisy, but the bishops choosing to expend their energy on fights that they might win. They have only so many options of things they can do. Amongst their weaponry are such diverse elements as… …never mind, I’ll come in again. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/59 "2021-06-19T00:40:40Z")
Is making public statements about things like this usually done by the Catholic Church? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115/60 "2021-06-19T02:52:22Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Maybe the Church should clean it’s own house before passing judgement on others. Hi, have you _met_ the church? That’s kind of their thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-the-church-and-communion/941115.md?page=4)