I thought you were supposed to come to God.
Thread 
I guess I’ll weigh in with this:
If the church isn’t willing to allow its members to take a secular approach to governance of a secular state, then the church isn’t really compatible with a secular state. And it also means that its members can’t really participate in governance of a secular state.
And yes, I realize this isn’t the church but a group of bishops.
I would argue that if you a really expansive view of this, the ACLU (I am literally a card carrying member) would have lost their 501(c)(3) status a while ago.
Anyways, I don’t really understand what the USCCB expect out of this. They are standing against their Pope and the 2nd Catholic President of the US. It will not end well for them, and trying to hyper partisan the Catholic Church (which I believe the laity is almost evenly split between Republicans and Democrats) is really going to hurt.
Not to mention where is the discussion of denying Communion to Catholic death penalty advocates. Not to mention the mortal sin of adultery.
It seems to me that this whole effort by the Catholic bishops isn’t solely trying to control Biden (which they know is unlikely to work) but also a not so veiled reminder to the 6.5 Catholic Supreme Court justices (counting Gorsuch as 0.5) that they better get/stay in line now that critical abortion cases are on their way.
I’m sure that’s true, but it’s not logical. The question for the Court would involve constitutional questions, and a justice could buy in to Catholic ideology 100% on the abortion question and still find that the Constitution protects the right to have one.
Exactly, the same logic can apply to the President as far as I can tell.
~Max
I think the nature of this comes with the issue itself. The idea that the Church proposes is that abortion is nothing short of murder. Biden purports to personally believe that yet doesn’t believe it is proper to impose his beliefs on others who disagree.
I could see that for a mundane issue like, marijuana. Although I don’t personally smoke marijuana, and believe it can be harmful, if some other guy wants to, then hey, live and let live.
However if you believe that something is murder, then by definition you cannot have that attitude. I mean, have you ever heard of anyone saying anything similar about malum in se things? Does anyone say that they don’t personally believe in torching buildings for insurance fraud, but if someone else wants to, then have at it?
Note that I am not trying to hijack the thread into an abortion debate. We are assuming that Biden personally believes that abortion is murder. If you believe that, then how can you be so forceful and a strong advocate for keeping it legal? At best you would be silent or acquiesce to it, but he mentions his support often and proposes legislation to keep it legal. Perhaps the Church does not believe in his sincerity.
The Church doesn’t believe raping little boys is a crime or a sin so why should we take their word on abortion?
Looks like it comes down to opinion all around.
You have a cite for that, right? Because it just isn’t true.
I can’t believe you’re demanding a cite for this and denying anything ever happened.
I think the idea that the Church " proposes is that abortion is nothing short of murder" is overstating the case. After all, if that was the Church’s teaching, indirect abortions would also be forbidden and they are not. Yes, it is the Church’s teaching that a fetus is a human life. But you know what - I cant recall seeing a statement that all "abortion is murder* in anything coming from the Vatican ( although, of course, I could have missed it ) It’s always about the fetus having an “inviolable right to life”. Secular law doesn’t describe all takings of a human live as murder - some are manslaughter, some are negligent and some are even justifiable - and I see no reason why a Catholic can’t make such distinctions.
* I have seen it, but not in anything coming from the Vatican
Saw this on a Facebook post quoting a Catholic priest:
“I want to write a longer piece about those bishops who seek to keep some from the table of Christ, but for now I will say this: it is not your table (nor mine). Bishops, priests, etc. are neither the hosts nor the bouncers nor the ones who wrote the guest list. The Eucharist is the resurrected body of Christ given for the life of the world. Jesus Christ is the one who invites the guests (“all you who labor”); he is the host of those who come; he is the setter of the table; and he is the feast which is shared (“Take this, all of you. . .this is my body, this is my blood”). We are guests at the meal, and sometimes (by his calling) servers. So stay in your lane, please. The wait staff doesn’t get to exclude those who want to come. If you don’t like the company Christ calls (and, admittedly, it is a rag tag bunch of sinners, one and all), it’s you who need to leave the table, not them.”
I think this is the right perspective. The clergy is in the business of offering the Eucharist and shouldn’t be deciding who is worthy of receiving it.
I believe the Vatican also teaches that abortion is a sin. However, the pope does NOT support the US bishops in their position on denying Biden the Eucharist. In fact, I believe he has instructed them to stop this big campaign.
Absolutely the Church teaches abortion is a sin and the Vatican has said so - but there are lots of sins that aren’t murder.