# Biden v. Palin Debate Oct 2. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2008, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965 "2008-09-24T12:02:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/241 "2008-10-03T15:14:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The “maverick” thing has gotten so obnoxious that if I owned the Dallas basketball team, I’d think about changing the name. And referring to yourself as a maverick, which she did several times and which McCain did three or four times last week, is just the height of self-importance. Couldn’t agree more. It’s like somebody walking around saying “I’m cool” all the time. Guess what, dillweed? If you have to say it, you’re not cool. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/242 "2008-10-03T15:21:26Z")
Palin largely stuck to populist statements without substance. When she tried to offer substance, Biden deconstructed her arguments brilliantly, if not always completely truthfully. As for her Alaska nonsense, there is no gas pipeline in the offing. There is no contract, no contractor, and no guarantee there ever will be. All she has done is offer an incentive to oil companies to possibly participate. If it happens at all, it’s probably 20 years in the future. On her mayorship in Wasilla: her statements about doing away with property taxes and small business (there’s no other kind of business in Wasilla) taxes translate to “did away with nearly all revenue sources and left the town in debt”. Permanent Fund investment in Sudan: This was a bill sponsored by Democrats, and was opposed by Palin and the fund manager. The party line was that investment of the fund should not be determined by political agenda. It died in committee. We’re still participating in funding the genocide. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/243 "2008-10-03T15:24:48Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Couldn’t agree more. It’s like somebody walking around saying “I’m cool” all the time. Guess what, dillweed? If you have to say it, you’re not cool. What can McCain do? He’s got to try to convince folks that he’s not Bush the third. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/244 "2008-10-03T15:47:40Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > What can McCain do? He’s got to try to convince folks that he’s not Bush the third. Instead of using that one word over and over again, he could do it by hammering home a couple of specific issues where he strongly disagreed with the administration. It shouldn’t be _that_ hard. He could say “I opposed the administration on torture and Guantanamo because they compromised America’s moral standing in the world, and I told them they should’ve sent more troops to Iraq sooner, and if they had, we could have already secured the country and perhaps been in the process of winding down the war.” There may be better examples - although torture is a good one - but that’s what came to mind. He could try “deregulation” too, since that seems rather important. The problem, of course, is that he’s crossed himself up on a lot of these issues. But I’m sure specifics, even refutable ones, would be more effective than shoehorning the word “maverick” into every other sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/245 "2008-10-03T15:49:20Z")
Dunno if anyone has already posted it, but I thought this was pretty funny: [http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the\_daily\_dish/images/2008/10/03/palinflow.jpg](http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/images/2008/10/03/palinflow.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/246 "2008-10-03T15:57:15Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Palin largely stuck to populist statements without substance. When she tried to offer substance, Biden deconstructed her arguments brilliantly, if not always completely truthfully. > > As for her Alaska nonsense, there is no gas pipeline in the offing. There is no contract, no contractor, and no guarantee there ever will be. All she has done is offer an incentive to oil companies to possibly participate. If it happens at all, it’s probably 20 years in the future. > > On her mayorship in Wasilla: her statements about doing away with property taxes and small business (there’s no other kind of business in Wasilla) taxes translate to “did away with nearly all revenue sources and left the town in debt”. > > Permanent Fund investment in Sudan: This was a bill sponsored by Democrats, and was opposed by Palin and the fund manager. The party line was that investment of the fund should not be determined by political agenda. It died in committee. We’re still participating in funding the genocide. I think I read that Wasilla has a sales tax. Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/247 "2008-10-03T16:18:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Instead of using that one word over and over again, he could do it by hammering home a couple of specific issues where he strongly disagreed with the administration. It shouldn’t be _that_ hard. He could say “I opposed the administration on torture and Guantanamo because they compromised America’s moral standing in the world, and I told them they should’ve sent more troops to Iraq sooner, and if they had, we could have already secured the country and perhaps been in the process of winding down the war.” There may be better examples - although torture is a good one - but that’s what came to mind. He could try “deregulation” too, since that seems rather important. > > The problem, of course, is that he’s crossed himself up on a lot of these issues. But I’m sure specifics, even refutable ones, would be more effective than shoehorning the word “maverick” into every other sentence. I didn’t say his strategy was effective for all times, I merely offered an explanation for why he is doing it. Your suggestions are ok, but admittedly, all of the politicians attempt to find a short & sweet word or phrase that can be played in the short (10 second?) sound segments of modern TV news. Some of the more memorable statements are those that can be quickly fired off by the ditto-heads of both sides on the political discussion shows. Some voters want a “bottom line” answer, and not get bogged down in “minutia” (especially in areas of policy that the voter in question is indifferent or unknowledgable about). ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/248 "2008-10-03T16:24:57Z")
McCain appears to be trying very hard here: [http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/10/mccain\_spot\_say.html](http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/10/mccain_spot_say.html) The first of the McCain ads regarding the debate. This ad is beyond pathetic. I especially like the “sigh” Biden gets accused of doing at the end. There is a lightspeed cut after Obama talks and no context at all on the rope line. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/249 "2008-10-03T16:37:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There was actually something very disquieting about the times she repeated those glossy Bushisms _in her perky Frances McDormand way._ Good gravy, THAT’S why she creeps me out so much! (Not that Frances McDormand isn’t awesome, but it’s Linda Litsky for Veep) I don’t have much else of substance to say. Palin did not fall on her face like people suspected, but I’d have been surprised if she’d really fumbled. She wants to come across as the earthy, wise, insightful outsider who’s really Just Like Everyone Else and not like those Washington Fat Cats whose Inspiring Story plays out when she’s pitted against her opponent. Unfortunately for her, Joe Biden does not come off as the Lying Sleazy Conniving Politician, instead sounding more like the Experienced Fatherly Statesman more convincingly than McCain himself. He managed to come off as superior in intelligence and experience without sounding condescending. I think his experience might actually make Obama seem like a less scary prospect to some thinking independents. I think the power of the VP bit was a dangerous problem for Palin, especially the way she answered it. What she said there was this: “You think Cheney was bad? Cheney showed us how powerful we could be if we could convince people to allow it! I’m not like him, don’t worry… you’ll all know what I’m about. This, what you see? It’s my agenda. And I’m going to make sure I have the power as VP to put it into action.” Now there’s a thought to keep me up nights. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/250 "2008-10-03T16:50:25Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I didn’t say his strategy was effective for all times, I merely offered an explanation for why he is doing it. I know; I understand why he’s doing it. I’m saying it would be more effective if he could explain his maverickosity better instead of just asserting it. > [@](#): > > Your suggestions are ok, but admittedly, all of the politicians attempt to find a short & sweet word or phrase that can be played in the short (10 second?) sound segments of modern TV news. I just suggested one that he could pull off in probably 10 seconds, with some tweaking. “Maverick” takes a fraction of a second and its effectiveness decreases with overuse. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/251 "2008-10-03T17:07:34Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I think I read that Wasilla has a sales tax. Is that correct? Quite possibly, and that may be the only thing keeping the place from collapsing. The town is one giant strip mall that gets a lot of rubber traffic in the short summer season from people buying gas, fast food and fishing supplies. So you’re right, if they have a sales tax they’re not completely without revenue. However, sales tax revenues aren’t sufficient to repair school buildings or roads, etc., so they rely on the largess of the state legislature (which is not always forthcoming under conservative governors like, say, Sarah Palin). Additionally, regressive taxes like a sales tax are proportionally unfair to lower income folks. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/252 "2008-10-03T17:09:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I know; I understand why he’s doing it. I’m saying it would be more effective if he could explain his maverickosity better instead of just asserting it. > > I just suggested one that he could pull off in probably 10 seconds, with some tweaking. “Maverick” takes a fraction of a second and its effectiveness decreases with overuse. Absolutely. When the media calls you a maverick (and with McCain, they do it 134 times per day), that’s a win. When you have to call yourself a maverick, that’s lame. Just like “POW,” “Maverick” is quickly becoming that pop song that has a good beat and you kind of liked the first 50 times you heard it, but now is starting to grate on your nerves because you hear it every 10 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/253 "2008-10-03T17:23:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I know; I understand why he’s doing it. I’m saying it would be more effective if he could explain his maverickosity better instead of just asserting it. > > I just suggested one that he could pull off in probably 10 seconds, with some tweaking. “Maverick” takes a fraction of a second and its effectiveness decreases with overuse. Anything can get old with overuse. I guess McCain’s handlers haven’t reached the conclusion that the term has become self defeating yet. (They could be wrong. I will _know_ they’re wrong when SNL lampoons it. 😛 ) It hasn’t reached the level of “annoying” for me yet. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/254 "2008-10-03T17:29:58Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Absolutely. When the media calls you a maverick (and with McCain, they do it 134 times per day), that’s a win. And the press stopped doing it sometime between the time he became the frontrunner and the time he was nominated, since that is a clear indication you’ve become part of the party establishment - either because the establishment has changed or you have, or both. And that’s been one of McCain’s problems this whole campaign: he was defined as an opposition figure, and as a mainstream figure it’s just not as clear who he is. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/255 "2008-10-03T17:59:41Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And the press stopped doing it sometime between the time he became the frontrunner and the time he was nominated, since that is a clear indication you’ve become part of the party establishment - either because the establishment has changed or you have, or both. And that’s been one of McCain’s problems this whole campaign: he was defined as an opposition figure, and as a mainstream figure it’s just not as clear who he is. Here’s a relevant [LA Times](http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-maverick11-2008aug11,0,299016.story)article from August about this very issue. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/256 "2008-10-03T20:01:26Z")
From the previous debate thread: [QUOTE=Euphonious Polemic] For the record, Palin used “maverick” or “mavericks” 6 times in the debate, and then Bidin launched in with a string of 9 “mavericks” in a row. I really hope that Biden effectively killed this term off, once and for all. [/QUOTE] I agree. Hopefully, the “team of mavericks” only made this one appearance because IT MAKES NO SENSE! Also, Palin also said “also” 48 times to Biden’s 3 times. She also said it twice in one sentence more than once: [QUOTE=Sarah Palin] There is something to be said \*\*also \*\*for man’s activities, but \*\*also \*\*for the cyclical temperature changes on our planet. … But as for as Darfur, we can agree on that **also** , the supported of the no-fly zone, making sure that all options are on the table there **also**. [/QUOTE] There’s no point to this other than: teehee! 😃 The most memorable phrase for me though was this: [QUOTE=Sarah Palin] …John McCain who knows how to win a war. Who’s been there and he’s faced challenges and he knows what evil is… [/QUOTE] Well, that settles it. Evil is as evil does. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/257 "2008-10-03T20:37:18Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Permanent Fund investment in Sudan: This was a bill sponsored by Democrats, and was opposed by Palin and the fund manager. The party line was that investment of the fund should not be determined by political agenda. It died in committee. We’re still participating in funding the genocide. In other words, her answer was a [url=]complete and total fabrication: > [@](#): > > “The [Palin] administration killed our bill,” said Alaska state representative Les Gara, D-Anchorage. Gara and state Rep. Bob Lynn, R-Anchorage, co-sponsored a resolution early this year to force the Alaska Permanent Fund – a $40 billion investment fund, a portion of whose dividends are distributed annually to state residents – to divest millions of dollars in holdings tied to the Sudanese government… > > But a search of news clips and transcripts from the time do not turn up an instance in which Palin mentioned the Sudanese crisis or concerns about Alaska’s investments tied to the ruling regime. Moreover, Palin’s administration openly opposed the bill, and stated its opposition in a public hearing on the measure. > > “I walked out of that hearing livid,” Gara recalled of the February meeting. Because of the Palin administration’s opposition to the bill, “We could not get a vote in that committee,” he explained. At no point did Palin come out in support of the effort, Gara said. Of course, the likelihood on anyone in the press being able to ask her a follow-up on the assertion? Virtually zero. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/258 "2008-10-03T20:50:10Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > In other words, her answer was a [url=]complete and total fabrication:Of course, the likelihood on anyone in the press being able to ask her a follow-up on the assertion? Virtually zero. Perhaps Obama will bring it up in his Town Meeting with McCain. It’s a legitimate concern and Palin lied about it. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/259 "2008-10-03T21:20:52Z")
Even if she’d been behind it, being the 33rd state to divest doesn’t exactly merit a cookie. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/260 "2008-10-03T21:47:50Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Here’s a relevant [LA Times](http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-maverick11-2008aug11,0,299016.story)article from August about this very issue. People get paid to say this stuff, folks, and I’m giving it away for free. Just another perk of hanging around on this board. 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965.md?page=14)