# Biden v. Palin Debate Oct 2. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2008, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965 "2008-09-24T12:02:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/301 "2008-10-05T00:36:39Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > As for the second point I do believe that the US and France did play a leading role in pressuring Syria to leave Lebanon. The second reference to Hezbollah isn’t a mistake; Biden’s saying that if NATO had been deployed in Lebanon, that would have helped to curb the power of Hezbollah which seems a reasonable enough conjecture. Except, of course, that that’s not what he said. He didn’t say any of the stuff you say he did. He said that his NATO plan wasn’t adopted, and the direct result is that Hezbollah is now part of the legitimate government. Except that Hezbollah became part of the legitimate government almost two years previous to the Israeli engagement. So the point is nonsensical. In addition, I have not been able to find anything which indicates that Biden or Obama supported the NATO plan. And in any event, the plan was largely considered to be a joke. None of the principal players supported it. Let’s face it - he created a paragraph of foreign policy word salad, mixing together a bunch of unrelated things, getting the names wrong and confusing the dates. He made claims that are flatly untrue. > [@](#): > > This was a political debate not an international relations seminar and Biden had to make to simplify a complex situation to a few sentences. Within that context there is nothing terribly wrong about his statements apart from that one misstatement of Hezbollah for Syria. It hardly amounts to a lie let alone some kind of pattern of lying. Oh, that’s rich. Because it’s a debate, you’re allowed to make claims that fly in the face of facts. This from the side that went ballistic at Palin’s lack of knowledge because she asked for a clarification of the Bush doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/302 "2008-10-05T00:39:04Z")
> [@leander](#): > > I think that tells us everything we need to know here. 🙂 You’ve got a funny way of dropping things. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/303 "2008-10-05T00:42:06Z")
**Moderator’s Note:** From here on out, everybody in this thread will be talking about the _Vice Presidential debate_–about what Biden said or didn’t say, about what Palin said or didn’t say, about whether the Senator or the Governor is a big fat liar, and about whether or not the debate will allow Obama to take Ohio or McCain to win in Florida, and similar issues–all right? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/304 "2008-10-05T00:43:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’ve got a funny way of dropping things. 😉 See, this is exactly what I mean by dishonest debating. I said I would be happy to drop it, but I am not going to sit back and let you misrepresent what I said. Now you can keep coming back with stupid quips like the one above, but I think it’s clear that you’re just trying to spinning things to make yourself look good. Funnily enough, I keep expecting you to run and hide like you did before. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/305 "2008-10-05T00:44:19Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > **Moderator’s Note:** From here on out, everybody in this thread will be talking about the _Vice Presidential debate_–about what Biden said or didn’t say, about what Palin said or didn’t say, about whether the Senator or the Governor is a big fat liar, and about whether or not the debate will allow Obama to take Ohio or McCain to win in Florida, and similar issues–all right? Thanks. Sorry, missed that one on submit. Happy to drop it so long as there’s no further twisting of my words. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/306 "2008-10-05T01:11:08Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The problem is that he was using these numbers as a way of proving that the U.S. military presence in Iraq was hampering the effort in Afghanistan. But using the reconstruction budget to make this comparison is nonsensical, because it has nothing whatsoever to do with the military presence in Iraq. He might as well have compared it to the cost of the last farm bill. The two are simply not related. Well, of course they’re related, Sam. Money coming out of the same budget’s always related. The fact is that the Iraq war HAS resulted in a lack of resources for Afghanistan. It could hardly be otherwise. Yes, Biden used a sleight-of-word trick to make it sound more dramatic than it is, but it was not a lie and the central idea - that fighting an unnecessary war in Iraq has resulted in a lack of focus on a necessary war in Afghanistan - is very true and very relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/307 "2008-10-05T02:55:04Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, of course they’re related, Sam. Money coming out of the same budget’s always related. > > The fact is that the Iraq war HAS resulted in a lack of resources for Afghanistan. It could hardly be otherwise. Yes, Biden used a sleight-of-word trick to make it sound more dramatic than it is, but it was not a lie and the central idea - that fighting an unnecessary war in Iraq has resulted in a lack of focus on a necessary war in Afghanistan - is very true and very relevant. No, it really isn’t, other than in the case where _military_ capability wasn’t available because it was all used up in Iraq. And the reconstruction money doesn’t come out of the same budget. Or rather it comes out of the same budget as education funding, bridges to nowhere, farm subsidies, and the myriad other things the U.S. government spends money on. Blaming the lack of reconstruction funding in Afghanistan on the Iraq war is about as relevant as blaming the lack of funding for reconstruction in Afghanistan on the prescription drug bill. Biden is clearly trying to say that you can’t have both. It’s either Iraq or Afghanistan. The example he used was highly misleading. He left the impression that he was talking about military support, and used a huge disparity in resources to make his point. Instead, it turns out that he was comparing _combat operations_ in Iraq with funds for building schools in Afghanistan. The two are simply not related. It would be just as fair for McCain to say that if Obama is elected we’ll lose in Afghanistan because the money we needed for reconstruction is instead going to go into Obama’s health care plan. And the Lebanon stuff is still nuts. There’s simply no substitution of words you can make that can put that particularly humpty-dumpty of a chain of reasoning back together again. It’s nonsensical from start to finish. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/308 "2008-10-05T04:23:46Z")
Assuming you’re right, maybe the person on stage with him claiming to have absorbed a lot of foreign policy knowledge should have called him on it. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/309 "2008-10-05T05:26:23Z")
I’m not saying Palin was any better. She was worse. I already said that Biden won the debate on points. I have no illusions about Palin’s depth of knowledge of foreign affairs. However, we were talking about Joe Biden. I know that invoking the other side’s failings is always a last-ditch attempt to deflect an issue in a debate, when all other modes of attack have failed. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/310 "2008-10-05T05:35:41Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > However, we were talking about Joe Biden. I know that invoking the other side’s failings is always a last-ditch attempt to deflect an issue in a debate, when all other modes of attack have failed. How are you not doing the same thing? Since the topic of the thread is the VP debate, it seems that “invoking the other side’s failings” is exactly what the whole freaking conversation is about. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/311 "2008-10-05T06:01:59Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > …This from the side that went ballistic at Palin’s lack of knowledge because she asked for a clarification of the Bush doctrine. Who “went ballistic”? Mostly, we just pointed our fingers and laughed. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/312 "2008-10-05T06:08:53Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Except, of course, that that’s not what he said. He didn’t say any of the stuff you say he did. He said that his NATO plan wasn’t adopted, and the direct result is that Hezbollah is now part of the legitimate government. Except that Hezbollah became part of the legitimate government almost two years previous to the Israeli engagement. So the point is nonsensical. In addition, I have not been able to find anything which indicates that Biden or Obama supported the NATO plan. And in any event, the plan was largely considered to be a joke. None of the principal players supported it. > > Let’s face it - he created a paragraph of foreign policy word salad, mixing together a bunch of unrelated things, getting the names wrong and confusing the dates. He made claims that are flatly untrue. > > Oh, that’s rich. Because it’s a debate, you’re allowed to make claims that fly in the face of facts. This from the side that went ballistic at Palin’s lack of knowledge because she asked for a clarification of the Bush doctrine. I believe that Hezbollah left the governnment in 2006 and launched an agitation which was resolved in 2008 with Hezbollah rejoining the government on substantially better terms. That is probably what Biden was referring to and he was claiming that had a NATO force been in there the Lebanese army would have been strenghthened and Hezbollah weakened and may not have been able to rejoin the government on its terms. This is a counter-factual but a perfectly reasonable one. The plan was quite serious and was being pushed by Rice at the time: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/24/AR2006072400050.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/24/AR2006072400050.html) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/313 "2008-10-05T06:09:39Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > This from the side that went ballistic at Palin’s lack of knowledge because she asked for a clarification of the Bush doctrine. She didn’t ask for a clarification. She fished for a clue as to what the hell it was. Then she took a wild guess that it was Bush’s “worldview.” She had never heard the words “Bush Doctrine” before in her life. Please don’t talk to us like we’re a fucking Dennis Prager audience here. We’re not dummies. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/314 "2008-10-05T06:09:47Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Blaming the lack of reconstruction funding in Afghanistan on the Iraq war is about as relevant as blaming the lack of funding for reconstruction in Afghanistan on the prescription drug bill. I think talking about a foolish war that is wasting money and lives is pretty damned relevant when we start asking where our money is going and what we’re getting for it (i.e. nothing). ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/315 "2008-10-05T15:21:01Z")
**FYI:** I’ve tried to but couldn’t find the original post speculating what a broadcast of the debates would be like if they had instant fact-checking projected onto the screen as they went along. **CNN will be doing just that with the Vice-Presidential debate today at 4:00 CDT.** ---
**Author:** ![Yumblie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/76d3ee/32.png) [@Yumblie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yumblie)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/316 "2008-10-05T17:57:48Z")
There’s certainly [someone](http://www.tmz.com/2008/10/03/famous-people-support-sarah-palin/) who thought Palin won, and it was…Famous Person. This is even worse than McCain declaring he won the debate before it even took place. What kind of slackers does he have running his campaign? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965/317 "2008-10-05T18:07:46Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > No, it really isn’t, other than in the case where _military_ capability wasn’t available because it was all used up in Iraq. And the reconstruction money doesn’t come out of the same budget. Or rather it comes out of the same budget as education funding, bridges to nowhere, farm subsidies, and the myriad other things the U.S. government spends money on. All of which can quite fairly be pointed to as wastes of money that detract from the U.S. government’s abilility to accomplish things it actually has to. The Iraq War is a better point of argument, though, for two reasons: 1. It’s a more easily comparable concept, and 2. It DOES pull away military resources and attention, not just money. Ethanol, a total waste of money, can’t be transferred to Afghanistan; a soldier can. Prescription drug plans won’t kill Osama bin Laden, but more military resources might. > [@](#): > > Biden is clearly trying to say that you can’t have both. It’s either Iraq or Afghanistan. And that’s a perfectly valid argument, Sam, at least in general. Maybe you disagree, and fair enough, but the facts on the ground are that the war in Afghanistan has gone very poorly, and I believe that’s largely due to the Iraq War, which (a) drew off resources directly, and (b) justifiably hurt America’s standing in world opinion and likely reduced other nations’ willingness to help the effort in Afghanistan. I agree Biden’s choice of number to compare were misleading, but they were not _factually_ incorrect, and the general concept in one I agree with. There was a spin there, but no lie. > [@](#): > > And the Lebanon stuff is still nuts. Oh, that’s true, no doubt. It was a bizarre statement. I couldn’t figure out what the hell he was talking about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-v-palin-debate-oct-2/464965.md?page=15)