Big airplanes--where does it end?

I agree that the primary hurdle in implementing different types of airframes is public reception and the accompanying financial risks, but other points–specifically that building such structures requires the use of nontraditional materials–is not correct. You could build a flying wing or blended wing body using standard aircraft materials of steel and aluminum, and in fact this would be easier to fabricate and assemble than composites. Composite materials are used on military combat aircraft not primarily because of their light weight or high stiffness but because they offer a low radar cross section (RCS).

The French/British Concorde SST failed not because of technical problems but because it wasn’t financially viable. The Soviet SST did encounter a number of technical limitations, but doubtless if they had the money and incentive to develop it further they could have overcome these. The SSTs were an answer to a question no one was seriously asking.

As for the controls technology required to stabilize non-conventional aeroshapes in flight, you are correct in saying that there is an existing body of knowledge and information regarding the associated phenomena, and the requisite computing power to provide control of active feedback systems; however, this knowledge base resides almost exclusively in the domain of military combat aircraft designers. Even if you could shift this directly over to commerical aircraft development, each aircraft is, to some extent, its own unique problem, particularly in the case of dynamically unstable flight. It’s not as if you can just pull the controllers out of a B-2 Spirit and plug them into a hypothetical Boeing Commerical Flying Wing with a few minor tweaks in software parameters; even adapting an existing control system would require substantial testing and verification, and this is an additional cost (and schedule risk) above and beyond the costs of development, tooling, and promotion of a new traditional design. There are manifest advantages to alternative body designs like a blended wing body, as I’ve outlined above, but there are also large unknowns that may impact the ability to project a cost and timeline. In comparison, a traditional wing and tube design has been done enough that the major operations and costs are (generally) well understood, at least from a design standpoint.

Finally, I have to take issue with your notion that modern controls allow you to fly any old thing any way you want. The laws of physics still apply, and aeroshape that are statically unstable–that is, do not display even nominal stability in level, unimpeded flight–are generally unflyable, regardless of your control system. Real world, non-linear systems are modeled and controlled by “linearizing” them; identifying in regions of interest solutions that can be approximated as linear behavior, i.e. problems that can be broken down into smaller, easily solved chunks that can be all superimposed together to give a “good enough” solution to the overall behavior. It’s certainly possible to develop a system even in theory which defies any attempt to control it by virtue of its essential chaotic, unlinearizable behavior. Even when a system can be linearized, it’s not a simple matter of using some standard software and plugging in a few numbers; each individual regime of behavior has to be modeled per its own special characteristics, and often small perturbations in these numbers result in large changes.

As an example, I’ll point to the V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft; even though the flight transition from forward to hover occurs at low speed, the complexity and sensitivity of the operation required years of specialized development and analysis by dozens of engineers and scientists and demands a fairly narrow range of control by the pilots. It’s just not as simple as slapping a computer on it and making it go.

Stranger

It’s worth mentioning that the physics of supersonic flight pretty much guarantees such craft won’t be fuel efficient compared to their subsonic brethren. Thus, for commercial success you’d need to find an ample number of customers to whom an hour saved is worth $1000 - $2000. Such folks seem to be rather thin on the ground.

They experimented with a pod for a machine gunner at the tip of a B-17 wing once. The position was unusable because of accelerations.

British Airways always insisted that the Concorde was profitable, but every aviation expert I’ve ever heard believes otherwise: that the Concorde never turned a profit, which is why the aircraft were retired so quickly after that accident. It’s not that they were any less safe than a normal aircraft, it’s that BA and Air France were looking for an excuse to send them to the scrapyard.

Indeed, the Concorde had a rather impressive safety record over a long period - quite notable for such an advanced aircraft.

:smiley:

Statisically I don’t believe that for a second. How many Concordes were there in regular service? Was it something like 4? Commercial airliners are ultrasafe anyway. There have only been two commercial airline disasters in the U.S. since 9/11 and one of those was a smaller regional jet. I can do the exact math if you want but even 1 Concorde crashing means that it is several hundred times more dangerous per passenger mile basis than a regular airliner. Ganted a one-off accident can skew statistics but it failed spectaculary just like other inherently unsafe cutting-edge crafts like the Space Shuttles.

[Chris Rock/] You ain’t gonna get a pat of the back for not crashing that much. That is what you are sposed to do[/Chris Rock]

Back to the OP. One constraint for the A380 that hasn’t been mentioned is the requirement to fit inside a standard 80m gate box on the airport flightpan.

As for Concorde, I used to work with some of the people involved, and they said that there were two big problems. The first was American protectionism: it wasn’t allowed to fly to the destinations in America that were wanted - and wasn’t allowed to fly supersonic over America at all. Secondly, there was the fuel crisis of the early 70s which induced a recession and increased fuel prices significantly.

It was 14. They flew over a span of 31 years (1969 - 2000) without (so it seems) an injury to any passenger. That remarkable record ended on 25 July 2000 when a tire failed during a takeoff in Paris.

I don’t have the passenger-mile figures for Concorde, but I seriously doubt that one crash in 30 years is hundreds of times worse than the average.

If the first crash is after 30 years and many thousands of flights, and has a rather mundane cause, then I think"inherently unsafe" and a comparison to the Shuttle are questionable.

I believe the prohibition against supersonic flight over the US well predated the Concorde - it wasn’t a protectionist measure.

Cite?

There have been plenty of planes that flew supersonic over the US - all US military. Concorde was the only supersonic civilian airliner.

But at the same time, IIRC, lots of tires have failed on lots of planes and the Concorde went streaming into the side of a hotel becuase of a particular weakness in it’s engine, wing, and fuel line configuration. Basically, those huge engines running the length of the wings with low inlets right next to the wheels were particularly susceptible to damage from objects kicked up off the runway and engineers found them essentially impossible to protect properly.

The wing configuration seems to me to be a necessary trait of a SST.

Sorry - Googling hasn’t turned up much on the history of regulations pertaining to supersonic flight. I did learn that there are significant restrictions on military supersonic flight, but was unable to determine when these came into effect.

Agreed. A supersonic-capable aircraft is nearly certain to have more problems from a tire failure.

Sadly the only existing AN-225, the world’s largest plane, was destroyed in Russia’s war against Ukraine this year.

http://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/antonov-an-225-largest-plane-destroyed-ukraine-scli-intl/index.html

I saw somewhere that there is hope to build another one.

But it just won’t be the same as an original!

Just to clarify a zombie - the tail of this thread seems to imply that a tire disassembly caused the Concorde crash - IIRC from news reports it was a piece of metal debris on the runway that fell off a previous aircraft, and punctured the underside of the Concorde’s fuel tank.

I saw the Antonov taking off once, it was on the way to California with a load. I had no idea it was in town, until this thing went overhead a few hundred feet up (or maybe it was huge and further away) and the first thing I noticed was “six engines!! What the heck is that??” Fortunately, there’s an app my wife has on her phone, you can point it at a passing aircraft overhead and it will tell you the type, flight number and flight plan.

The crash was caused by a piece of metal debris on the runway. But, what actually happened was that the metal pierced the tire, and the tire disassembly sent large chunks of tire flying into the wing at high velocity. The wing was pierced but not the fuel tank. However, the shock wave from the impact caused one of the fuel tanks to crack open, so the end result was the same.

There is a second AN-225 that was constructed but never completed. Some parts can probably be scavenged from the destroyed AN-225, and some parts can be taken from spares, but the plane still has a long way to go to be completed, and a lot of parts simply aren’t available. It would be a very expensive plane to finish.

The last I heard the plan was to sue the Russians and make them pay for it. I personally am rather skeptical about the Russians ever agreeing to that.

Note that in the fifteen years since the OP was written, production of the Airbus A380 ended with only about 250 planes sold and Airbus probably never recovered its original investment.

It wasn’t engineering issues that ended the A380 though, it was financial and operational problems.