# Big Ben in Big Trouble? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 11, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116 "2010-03-11T16:08:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/81 "2010-04-14T04:19:43Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > He wasn’t having sex. It depends on what your definition of “is” is… Well, the medical report noted evidence of vaginal penetration with minor tearing and a minute amount of male DNA. That doesn’t happen walking down the street. Or kneeling, for that matter. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Ok, then if they were “fooling around,” then he engaged in some grossly inappropriate behavior in a public place with an underaged girl who the police say was too inebriated to comprehend what was happening to her. And who said no, to the extent that she could, apparently more than once, and went into the bathroom to get away from him. > [@](#): > > If I was a Rooney, I’d trade his ass for a bag of balls and some kicking tees, but that’s just me. Considering that they just traded Santonio Holmes whose alleged misdeeds are considerably less serious than sexual assault, it doesn’t speak well for the Steelers organization if Ben is kept and not suspended. And I say this as a lifelong Steelers fan. I’m close to being done with them. ---
**Author:** ![Chicagojeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@Chicagojeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicagojeff)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/82 "2010-04-14T06:58:01Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Well, the medical report noted evidence of vaginal penetration with minor tearing and a minute amount of male DNA. That doesn’t happen walking down the street. Or kneeling, for that matter. > > And who said no, to the extent that she could, apparently more than once, and went into the bathroom to get away from him. > > Considering that they just traded Santonio Holmes whose alleged misdeeds are considerably less serious than sexual assault, it doesn’t speak well for the Steelers organization if Ben is kept and not suspended. And I say this as a lifelong Steelers fan. I’m close to being done with them. Besides the damn cops taking a picture with him.. one of the more disturbing things is Ben posting his bodythug by the door either prohibiting the girl from leaving or keeping everyone else out. THAT is the behavior of a man in serious need of therapy.. This is truly Ben’s last straw.. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/83 "2010-04-14T11:15:24Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Considering that they just traded Santonio Holmes whose alleged misdeeds are considerably less serious than sexual assault, it doesn’t speak well for the Steelers organization if Ben is kept and not suspended. And I say this as a lifelong Steelers fan. I’m close to being done with them. But that’s just it. Is it fair to use the term “sexual assault” when none has been proven? When an anonymous drunk 20 year old sorority girl says it, it must be true? So really, all you have left is Ben being a poor excuse for a human being and being very, very immoral in his sexual behavior, which again, if you are going to suspend someone for, we will all be taking naps on Sunday afternoons for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/84 "2010-04-14T13:19:57Z")
It was a gross sexual imposition at best when it’s an underaged girl who’s too drunk to comprehend what’s happening to her, and it was _in public_. Most NFL players aren’t having sex _in public_. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/85 "2010-04-14T16:17:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Most NFL players aren’t having sex _in public_. How about 90 people engaging in orgies aboard two boats on Lake Minnetonka? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/86 "2010-04-14T17:02:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Ok, then if they were “fooling around,” then he engaged in some grossly inappropriate behavior in a public place with an underaged girl who the police say was too inebriated to comprehend what was happening to her. SHE. WASN’T. UNDERAGED. Unless Big Ben has a fountain of youth in his pants, she was most assuredly not underage. And you repeating it over and over again will not make it true. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/87 "2010-04-14T17:04:13Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Considering that they just traded Santonio Holmes whose alleged misdeeds are considerably less serious than sexual assault, it doesn’t speak well for the Steelers organization if Ben is kept and not suspended. And I say this as a lifelong Steelers fan. I’m close to being done with them. Quoting a letter writer to Sports Illustrated this week: > [@](#): > > • THE ROONEYS SHOULD THINK ABOUT THIS. From Mark Pence of Pittsburgh: "Regarding the upstanding Steelers, how has the organization handled Jeff Reed’s off-field incidents? Has he been suspended by the team? Or was he rewarded with the franchise tag and the contract that it carries? And what about James Harrison? Didn’t the organization overlook Najeh Davenport’s off-field transgressions when they needed help at running back? Weren’t there warning flags about Santonio Holmes before the draft that the organization chose to ignore? Didn’t they give him numerous chances, until he was facing a league suspension and in the final year of his contract? And THEN they trade him? To say the Steelers are ‘upstanding’ is a bit of a stretch. They’re no different than any other team – if it’s convenient, and necessary, they’ll keep a player.‘’ In other news, “The Patriot Way” was also crap. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/88 "2010-04-14T18:24:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It was a gross sexual imposition at best when it’s an underaged girl who’s too drunk to comprehend what’s happening to her, and it was _in public_. Most NFL players aren’t having sex _in public_. All of a sudden, the outrage shifts to “OMG! He was having sex in public!:eek:” :rolleyes: She was old enough to have sex, and as far as he could possibly know, she was old enough to drink. He may have been just as drunk as her, so she is just as guilty of anything he is. She’s actually more guilty for initiating a BS assault charge once she found out he had deep pockets, and piggybacking on the Arizona woman’s BS claim. I suppose to some liberals, human rights don’t apply if you’re rich, white and male. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/89 "2010-04-14T18:26:37Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > All of a sudden, the outrage shifts to “OMG! He was having sex in public!:eek:” :rolleyes: She was old enough to have sex, and as far as he could possibly know, she was old enough to drink. He may have been just as drunk as her, so she is just as guilty of anything he is. She’s actually more guilty for initiating a BS assault charge once she found out he had deep pockets, and piggybacking on the Arizona woman’s BS claim. > > I suppose to some liberals, human rights don’t apply if you’re rich, white and male. :dubious: And you know the charges are bullshit because…? And no, she wasn’t old enough to drink – at least not legally. (And bonus points for pulling out the poor, oppressed white males. :rolleyes:) However, **Dio** , you need to drop the “underaged” bullshit. She was past the age of consent, she simply wasn’t old enough to drink. But she was not what most would think of as “underage” and she definitely was NOT a minor. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/90 "2010-04-14T18:29:29Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > How about 90 people engaging in orgies aboard two boats on Lake Minnetonka? > > 😉 And those players all got disciplined by the NFL. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/91 "2010-04-14T18:32:45Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > SHE. WASN’T. UNDERAGED. > > Unless Big Ben has a fountain of youth in his pants, she was most assuredly not underage. And you repeating it over and over again will not make it true. She was not of legal drinking age. That’s a person who is “underaged” to ply with alcohol until she doesn’t know what days it is, then take her in a public bathroom to take advantage of while a thug stands guard outside. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/92 "2010-04-14T18:43:54Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > All of a sudden, the outrage shifts to "OMG! He was having sex in public! No, my outrage is that he got an underaged girl too drunk to stand up and then sexually assaulted her in a public bathroom. The only reason he got away with it was because the girl was too incapacitated to remember what happened or to testify about it (and isn’t having sex with a girl who’s too drunk to understand what’s going on a _de facto_ rape all by itself?). The fact that it was public is not my source of “outrage,” it’s just something the Steelers can hamg their hat on to suspend him. If the Loveboat players got disciplined, then why should Roethlisberger get special treatment? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/93 "2010-04-14T19:17:31Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > She was not of legal drinking age. That’s a person who is “underaged” to ply with alcohol until she doesn’t know what days it is, then take her in a public bathroom to take advantage of while a thug stands guard outside. Do you know that any of that happened? Do you know what this club’s rules for entrance are? If you have to be over 21 to get in and she got in, isn’t she the one breaking the rules? The fact is, no one knows shit and the only person that could claim Big Ben was a big criminal has declined to press chages. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/94 "2010-04-14T19:25:21Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > :dubious: > > And you know the charges are bullshit because…? And no, she wasn’t old enough to drink – at least not legally. > > (And bonus points for pulling out the poor, oppressed white males. :rolleyes:) For one thing, she doesn’t remember what happened and couldn’t piece together a believable story. And I only brought up to rich white male issue because I’ve read many of Dio’s posts and his ethical hurdles seem to lack consistency. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/95 "2010-04-14T19:29:39Z")
If she was too drunk to know what was going on, then, by dfinition, she was too drunk to give consent. And what does “white male” have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/96 "2010-04-14T19:29:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > …If the Loveboat players got disciplined, then why should Roethlisberger get special treatment? Since the NFL is a business, its cost-benefit analysis tells them that disciplining players for ethically questionable acts maintains value. That’s why. Remember, the Duke lacrosse program had to be completely shut down on proven fictitious rape charges. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/97 "2010-04-14T19:30:42Z")
And therefore Roethlisberger should get special treatment why? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/98 "2010-04-14T19:40:30Z")
That doesn’t make her a golddigger. Alot of hardcore Steelers’ fans around here are shouting things like “money-grubbing slut” and things like that, which make me sick. I can’t say I blame her for not wanting to press charges. The whole, “abcense of evidence vs. evidence of abscense” and all that. There WAS evidence there – tearing, bruising, and semin – but not enough to obtain DNA. One thing that made me feel sick this morning – I was getting dressed and it was chilly this morning in the house, so I went to put on a Steelers pullover I have. And I paused, thinking, “I feel somewhat uneasy wearing this.” And that makes me feel really, really depressed, as a Steelers’ fan. As for **Dio** , I’ve pretty much given up on the “underage” thing – he’s not just splitting hairs, he’s splitting split ends! (Hint – “underage” usually means someone is a minor, NOT that they’re under 21. 20 is NOT a minor) But then, we still have hockey and the Penguins. And Sidney Crosby is sooo not like Ben. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/99 "2010-04-14T21:09:54Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > That doesn’t make her a golddigger. Alot of hardcore Steelers’ fans around here are shouting things like “money-grubbing slut” and things like that, which make me sick. I can’t say I blame her for not wanting to press charges. The whole, “abcense of evidence vs. evidence of abscense” and all that. There WAS evidence there – tearing, bruising, and semin – but not enough to obtain DNA. I have not heard or seen anything that indicates that such physical evidence in fact existed. In fact, what was there to be found was [described as “scant”](http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/TheLaw/ben-roethlisberger-district-attorney/story?id=10359118). This is, of course, referring to the second woman. The first woman is, to all indications, a golddigger. The alleged third woman is making substantially the same accusations as Andrea McNulty. As far as I am concerned, Ben is guilty of bad judgment and nothing more. I’ve said before that if he did do it he should be thrown in prison for an extended period of time, but there is no indication that he did, in any of the three cases. If there is I’d be more than happy to see it. > [@](#): > > One thing that made me feel sick this morning – I was getting dressed and it was chilly this morning in the house, so I went to put on a Steelers pullover I have. And I paused, thinking, “I feel somewhat uneasy wearing this.” And that makes me feel really, really depressed, as a Steelers’ fan. I’m not exactly happy about the off-season stuff either, but if people feel no guilt about being fans of the Vikings, Bengals, Cowboys, Browns, etc., I don’t know why you should feel bad about being a Steelers fan based on unsubstantiated allegations. > [@](#): > > As for **Dio** , I’ve pretty much given up on the “underage” thing – he’s not just splitting hairs, he’s splitting split ends! (Hint – “underage” usually means someone is a minor, NOT that they’re under 21. 20 is NOT a minor) She is, however, underage for the purposes of consuming alcohol, and that is why I suspect the tape was erased. First off, the police had the opportunity to take the tape and chose not to. Second, it has been reported that they saw the tape and yet still didn’t get a copy, which makes me believe that there was nothing to see. Last, the business owner had an interest in covering his ass for serving an underage woman, and since the police had demonstrated no interest in the tape he probably took the opportunity to cover his own ass. > [@](#): > > But then, we still have hockey and the Penguins. And Sidney Crosby is sooo not like Ben. The Penguins have had numerous unsavory players in their own right, some of which actually DID do something wrong. If your goal is to watch a sport played by people with lily-white character, I suggest you not watch pro sports ever again. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/100 "2010-04-14T21:14:57Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > For one thing, she doesn’t remember what happened and couldn’t piece together a believable story. The police said that she was too drunk to remember what happened, not that she wasn’t believable. It’s not like she was giving them a story that was falling apart, she just couldn’t remember anything. The cops took her pretty seriously. I believe it’s indisputable that he got her drunk, took her in the bathroom and had penetrative sex with her. The only issue is what kind of consent he believed he had. If she was too drunk to remember it (as the cops say she was), then I don’t see how she could have given meaningful consent, but I guess they just don’t think they can prove anything, and the victim doesn’t want to endure the typical lynch mobs and death threats that would come if she tried to go forward. It’s very convenient for pro athletes that it’s basically impossible for accusers to get any benefit of a doubt. The default assumption is that if the guy has money, then the accuser must be a lying slut. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116.md?page=6)