# Big Ben in Big Trouble? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 11, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116 "2010-03-11T16:08:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/101 "2010-04-15T00:54:04Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > The Penguins have had numerous unsavory players in their own right, some of which actually DID do something wrong. If your goal is to watch a sport played by people with lily-white character, I suggest you not watch pro sports ever again. That was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek. šŸ˜‰ I should have indicated so. And no, Iā€™m not saying I want a sport with nothing but saints. Just that Ben makes me sick. He may not be a rapist. He is, by most accounts, a total prick. ETA: I do agree that McNulty is definitely a golddigger. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/102 "2010-04-15T00:59:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I believe itā€™s indisputable that he got her drunk, took her in the bathroom and had penetrative sex with her. That is extremely disputable. Roethlisberger denies they had sex, and I donā€™t know if the woman even claimed they had intercourse. Roethlisberger did not have to get her drunk. There was plenty of alcohol around, including before she met Roethlisberger, for her to get herself drunk. I donā€™t know if she even claimed he got her drunk. At the very least, can you cite your source for the woman claiming that she did not get herself drunk and that they had intercourse? Incidentally, I would not be surprised if those are her claims, nor would I be surprised if Roethlisberger did something really bad, but you are throwing around rumors as though you have hard evidence. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/103 "2010-04-15T13:28:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The police said that she was too drunk to remember what happened, not that she wasnā€™t believable. Itā€™s not like she was giving them a story that was falling apart, she just couldnā€™t remember anything. The cops took her pretty seriously. If she was too drunk to remember what happened, then why were the police called to begin with? You have Ben and this girl who were both drunk and both voluntarily went into that bathroom, and what happened next is between the two of them and God. And you admit that the girl was too drunk to remember. Hell, maybe she forced herself on him and in his intoxicated state, he was powerless to fight her advances? Unlikely, sure, but it is a guess like everything else. The bruising and tearing? Meh. Iā€™ve dated girls that bruise after not-so-rough sex. People are different that way. Whoā€™s to say that she didnā€™t have sex with someone else earlier that night? It just amazes me that anyone can claim to know anything about what happened here. All everyone is doing is exposing their own prejudices. It seems like conservatives want to believe Ben and liberals want to side with this girl. btw..was she cited for underaged drinking? It not, why not? There is clear evidence there. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/104 "2010-04-15T14:10:00Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > If she was too drunk to remember what happened, then why were the police called to begin with? Several of her friends to her to the police station after she came out of the bathroom sobbing. > [@](#): > > You have Ben and this girl who were both drunk and both voluntarily went into that bathroom, and what happened next is between the two of them and God. And you admit that the girl was too drunk to remember. Hell, maybe she forced herself on him and in his intoxicated state, he was powerless to fight her advances? Unlikely, sure, but it is a guess like everything else. Itā€™s not a guess that she came out of that bathrrom sobbing with vaginal tearing, or that she was too incpacitated to have consented. > [@](#): > > The bruising and tearing? Meh. Iā€™ve dated girls that bruise after not-so-rough sex. People are different that way. Whoā€™s to say that she didnā€™t have sex with someone else earlier that night? This is what I mean about it being impossible for an accuser to get a fair shake. No matter what the evdience, sheā€™s still a lying slut. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/105 "2010-04-15T14:27:32Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > It just amazes me that anyone can claim to know anything about what happened here. All everyone is doing is exposing their own prejudices. It seems like conservatives want to believe Ben and liberals want to side with this girlā€¦ The only thing that anyone really knows is that there wasnā€™t enough evidence to prove an assault occurred. I donā€™t necessarily believe Ben or her. Iā€™ve only offered opposing possibilities to those that want to judge Ben. Iā€™m not taking his side, only highlighting the potential that she is looking for an easy payday. Also, Iā€™m definitely NOT a conservative.šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/106 "2010-04-15T14:47:16Z")
Thatā€™s the other thing. The only way an accuser can be believed is if she doesnā€™t seek civil damages (and only one of the three alleged victims has expressed any desire in money, by the way). Any attempt to seek civil redress is considered _ipso facto_ proof that sheā€™s a gold digging liar. Even if they _donā€™t_ try to sue, the accusation is that they _will_. Short of a videotape of the crime, itā€™s basically impossible for these women to ever be believed. If sheā€™s beaten up and has vaginal tearing, she just a slut who likes rough sex. Even if there WERE a videotape of the crime, she would just be accused of setting the guy up and staging it or something. Rich celebrity males pretty much have a free rape pass, because no amount of evidence is enough to overcome the reflexive, default misogyny of the public. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/107 "2010-04-15T14:59:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Even if there WERE a videotape of the crime, she would just be accused of setting the guy up and staging it or something. Rich celebrity males pretty much have a free rape pass, because no amount of evidence is enough to overcome the reflexive, default misogyny of the public. You say default misogyny, I say the public has been bombarded with stories where women did try to set an athlete up for a big payday, so they question all of the them. Including one previously involving Big Ben. Once bitten, twice shy. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/108 "2010-04-15T15:07:06Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > You say default misogyny, I say the public has been bombarded with stories where women did try to set an athlete up for a big payday, so they question all of the them. Including one previously involving Big Ben. > > Once bitten, twice shy. ā€œBombarded?ā€ Really? Cite? Name one proven instance of this besides Duke. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/109 "2010-04-15T15:11:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > ā€œBombarded?ā€ Really? Cite? Name one proven instance of this besides Duke. The first Big Ben allegation. Kobe in Colorado. And, as you mentioned, the Duke lacrosse team. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/110 "2010-04-15T15:25:04Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > The first Big Ben allegation. This has not yet been adjudicated. > [@](#): > > Kobe in Colorado. There was no proof that the girl in the Kobe case was lying. He was acquitted because the jury thought there was reasonable doubt (his lawyers were successful at smearing the girl as a promiscuous slut), but an acquittal is not _ipso facto_ proof that the accuser was lying or gold digging. > [@](#): > > And, as you mentioned, the Duke lacrosse team. That makes one case. Not much of a ā€œbombardment.ā€ ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/111 "2010-04-15T15:25:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Thatā€™s the other thing. The only way an accuser can be believed is if she doesnā€™t seek civil damages (and only one of the three alleged victims has expressed any desire in money, by the way). Any attempt to seek civil redress is considered _ipso facto_ proof that sheā€™s a gold digging liar. > > Even if they _donā€™t_ try to sue, the accusation is that they _will_. > > Short of a videotape of the crime, itā€™s basically impossible for these women to ever be believed. If sheā€™s beaten up and has vaginal tearing, she just a slut who likes rough sex. > > Even if there WERE a videotape of the crime, she would just be accused of setting the guy up and staging it or something. Rich celebrity males pretty much have a free rape pass, because no amount of evidence is enough to overcome the reflexive, default misogyny of the public. As I said in the OP, these types of incidents usually turn into a ā€œhe said, she saidā€ debate. We can say with some degree of certainty that the investigators are in the best position to determine what happened. If itā€™s not possible to prove that a crime occurred, we have no choice but to defend the accused. The logical conclusion to your way of thinking is that the accused must somehow prove that it wasnā€™t a rape. This would take our society back to era of witch trials. By most accounts, Big Ben is a dick. Iā€™m a Steeler fan, and itā€™s hard to admit this. But if anything, this created more media prejudice against him. I donā€™t think that your claim of default misogyny applies in the slightest, as all reports about her mentioned her age and the fact that she was a student (who quit school after the incident). Both of these descriptions are completely irrelevant in determining what actually happened. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/112 "2010-04-15T15:29:46Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > As I said in the OP, these types of incidents usually turn into a ā€œhe said, she saidā€ debate. We can say with some degree of certainty that the investigators are in the best position to determine what happened. If itā€™s not possible to prove that a crime occurred, we have no choice but to defend the accused. The logical conclusion to your way of thinking is that the accused must somehow prove that it wasnā€™t a rape. This would take our society back to era of witch trials. Not at all, I would just be content if the accusers were not automatically demonized. Iā€™m asking for objectivity and fairness, not an assumption of guilt. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/113 "2010-04-15T15:35:55Z")
The District Attorney painted Ben as the bad guy in no uncertain terms during his press conference. It was clear that he did everything he could to haul Ben into court, but when the victim (his word) decided not to follow through there was no way to get a conviction. You have to bury your head pretty far into the sand to come away with any conclusion other than Ben sexually assaulted that girl. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/114 "2010-04-15T15:51:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He was acquitted because the jury thought there was reasonable doubt (his lawyers were successful at smearing the girl as a promiscuous slut), but an acquittal is not _ipso facto_ proof that the accuser was lying or gold digging. The Kobe Bryant case never went to the jury, the charges were dropped because the accuser did not want to continue with the case and did not want to testify in court (prosecutors saying she wasnā€™t emotionally willing to have herself labeled a lying slut in public, defense council saying her reluctance was proof of her lying). Kobe later publicly apologized to her, and the two did settle a civil suit. Just wanted to provide some accuracy regarding the case. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/115 "2010-04-15T15:53:59Z")
Thanks for the correction. Still, the point remains that she was not proven to be lying. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/116 "2010-04-15T16:50:36Z")
Apparently the Steelers are willing to [listen to trade offers](http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8178b2b1&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true) for the big dumb oaf. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/117 "2010-04-15T19:59:57Z")
Around here, Ben jerseys are selling for five bucks or less ā€“ they canā€™t give them away. People are either giving them to Goodwill or just tossing them. My sister has one and canā€™t wait to get rid of it. I need a new jersey, but only because Willy Parkerā€™s no longer with the team. ā˜¹ I want to get Troy Polamalu. Troy=Antiben. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/118 "2010-04-15T20:03:37Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Around here, Ben jerseys are selling for five bucks or less ā€“ they canā€™t give them away. People are either giving them to Goodwill or just tossing them. > > My sister has one and canā€™t wait to get rid of it. I need a new jersey, but only because Willy Parkerā€™s no longer with the team. ā˜¹ I want to get Troy Polamalu. Troy=Antiben. I was very close to buying one a couple of years ago, but went with Holmes instead. Poor choice on my part, either way. BTW, Iā€™m still looking for an authentic John Stallworth black jersey (unsigned) if you happen to be in the know. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/119 "2010-04-15T20:20:02Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Apparently the Steelers are willing to [listen to trade offers](http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8178b2b1&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true) for the big dumb oaf. I think theyā€™d have to be blown away by a trade offer. And that will be tough, given the baggage heā€™s carrying around right now. I donā€™t see them dumping him for nothing, like they did with Holmes. Letā€™s face itā€¦ as bad as things look and sound about Ben, he hasnā€™t been charged with anything. The Steelers will suspend him, and this will be his last chance in Pittsburgh. Heā€™s an immature buffoon, but the NFL is a business, and teams would be lining up to give him a contract. The Steelers know it, and Ben has real value on the open market. As much as Holmes was given away, heā€™s a guy that has very little self-control. Iā€™m sure someone in Pittsburgh will correct me, but I believe he has 3 kids with 2 different women, and heā€™s one magic puff away from a 1-year suspension. They have an asset (and an asshat) with Ben. They wonā€™t give him away, especially since theyā€™ve paid the biggest chunk of his massive contract already. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116/120 "2010-04-15T20:36:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Short of a videotape of the crime, itā€™s basically impossible for these women to ever be believed. If sheā€™s beaten up and has vaginal tearing, she just a slut who likes rough sex. Once again, where are you getting your insider information about what the accusations were? How do you know the woman claimed she did not get herself drunk before meeting Roethlisberger? How do you know the woman claimed they had intercourse? It isnā€™t a matter of believing the accuser, because we donā€™t even know what she said! Roethlisberger claims they never had sex at all. If there is indeed good evidence that they had sex, his lie would be compelling evidence that he raped her, and I canā€™t see why he wouldnā€™t have been charged. Since he wasnā€™t, and since I donā€™t know if the woman said they had intercourse, my guess is they did not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ben-in-big-trouble/532116.md?page=7)