# Big Bertha made it to outer space? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 13, 2007, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bertha-made-it-to-outer-space/395746 "2007-03-13T14:22:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bertha-made-it-to-outer-space/395746/1 "2007-03-13T14:22:04Z")
I was reading about German railway guns of WWI the other day. Monstrous things, so precisely engineered that each projectile was a little larger than its predecessor, to account for barrel wear. And after a couple dozen firings, you shipped the whole thing back to Krupp’s for barrel replacement. One thing made me perk up my ears, though. The range of one gun was 143 miles, and the shell rose 25 miles on its flight. But wait, I thought; wasn’t NASA handing our astronaut wings to anyone who made it above 100,000 feet? And that’s only 19 miles? So the human race’s first “astronaut” was a great big artillery shell on its way to Paris!?! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bertha-made-it-to-outer-space/395746/2 "2007-03-13T14:34:26Z")
I don’t know anything about the gun, but doesn’t the concept of a space vehicle or delivery solution almost inevitably include some kind of instrumentation payload? I’m having a hard time imagining how such a thing could be sufficiently toughened to survive artillery-style launch into space. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bertha-made-it-to-outer-space/395746/3 "2007-03-13T14:39:38Z")
I think there’s some exaggeration going on somewhere along the line. The [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_gun) article on the WW1 “Paris Guns” states: > [@](#): > > It was capable of hurling a 94 kilogram (210 lb) shell to a range of 130 kilometres (81 mi) and a maximum altitude of 40 kilometres (20 mi) — the greatest height reached by a human-made projectile until the first successful V-2 flight test in October 1942. A whole five miles less than what’s claimed in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bertha-made-it-to-outer-space/395746/4 "2007-03-13T14:43:25Z")
[QUOTE=Rocketeer] But wait, I thought; wasn’t NASA handing our astronaut wings to anyone who made it above 100,000 feet? And that’s only 19 miles? [/QUOTE] Going completely from memory here, but ISTR that NASA (or was it the Air Force?) considered a pilot who reached 100,000 feet an astronaut even though the altitude is still within the atmosphere. To fly that high, the pilots had to wear pressure suits. The Ansari X-Prize rules defined ‘space’ as 100km. BTW when I read the thread title the first thing I thought of was [this](http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/est/est1948.htm). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bertha-made-it-to-outer-space/395746/5 "2007-03-13T15:22:39Z")
100,000 ft is only 30 km. That’s routinely reached by high-altitude helium balloons - I think the record is around 44 km. As for the definition of space and astronaut, the sidebar of [this article](http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/X-Press/stories/2005/102105_Wings.html) says: > [@](#): > > During the 1950s … engineers decided to draw an arbitrary line at the altitude where dynamic pressure was less than one pound per square foot… …in general it is at about 50 miles (264,000 feet, or 81 kilometers) … This definition was codified into regulations within the military services that awarded an aeronautical rating of ‘astronaut’ to military pilots who flew above 50 miles (in the 1950s, extreme altitudes were expressed in miles, not feet). > > Somewhat later, aeronautical scientist Theodore von Kármán calculated that above an altitude of approximately 100 kilometers (62 miles, or 328,084 feet), a vehicle would have to fly faster than orbital velocity in order to derive sufficient aerodynamic lift from the atmosphere to stay aloft. … This 100-kilometer “Kármán Line” was recommended to the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale … it became the internationally accepted boundary to space for the purposes of world records and many treaties. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bertha-made-it-to-outer-space/395746/6 "2007-03-13T15:37:22Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] I don’t know anything about the gun, but doesn’t the concept of a space vehicle or delivery solution almost inevitably include some kind of instrumentation payload? I’m having a hard time imagining how such a thing could be sufficiently toughened to survive artillery-style launch into space. [/QUOTE] It can be done. World War II proximity fuses contained vacuum tubes that were designed to survive being launched from a gun. In later years, sophisticated guidance and steering packages have been integrated into artillery shells. Some current models include GPS receivers, and can steer themselves to the target on some unusual flight paths. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bertha-made-it-to-outer-space/395746/7 "2007-03-13T16:02:09Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] I don’t know anything about the gun, but doesn’t the concept of a space vehicle or delivery solution almost inevitably include some kind of instrumentation payload? I’m having a hard time imagining how such a thing could be sufficiently toughened to survive artillery-style launch into space. [/QUOTE] [Meet Gerald Bull.](http://world.std.com/~jlr/doom/bull.htm) > [@](#): > > Gerald Bull had a vision and an obsession, a vision that led to estrangement from his native Canada, prison in America, and ultimately assassination by Israel. His vision was of an entirely new way to get into space: small rockets boosted by giant guns. To achieve it he worked for some of the worst regimes on earth: South Africa, China, and ultimately Iraq. His work affected the course of two modern wars and revived the ancient field of artillery. ---
**Author:** ![Aioua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@Aioua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aioua)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bertha-made-it-to-outer-space/395746/8 "2007-03-13T16:10:40Z")
Don’t forget [Jules.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_Earth_to_the_Moon) ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bertha-made-it-to-outer-space/395746/9 "2007-03-13T16:13:57Z")
[QUOTE=scr4] 100,000 ft is only 30 km. That’s routinely reached by high-altitude helium balloons - I think the record is around 44 km. [/QUOTE] I need to correct myself - the current record, as far as I know, is [53.0 km](http://asia.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=6248). (Which I should have known because I was in the control room when that record was made - my own experiment was awaiting flight on the next balloon.) ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bertha-made-it-to-outer-space/395746/10 "2007-03-13T17:39:21Z")
Heh heh. So I had the altitude reached by the shell wrong, and I had the “edge of space” altitude wrong. That’s about par for the course for me. 🙂 Thanks to all who responded. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bertha-made-it-to-outer-space/395746/11 "2007-03-13T20:55:23Z")
> [@](#): > > …and a maximum altitude of 40 kilometres (20 mi) That’s just a very sloppy conversion. 40 kilometers is actually 24.85 miles, in line with the OP’s figure of 25 miles. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bertha-made-it-to-outer-space/395746/12 "2007-03-14T09:26:51Z")
[QUOTE=mks57] It can be done. World War II proximity fuses contained vacuum tubes that were designed to survive being launched from a gun. In later years, sophisticated guidance and steering packages have been integrated into artillery shells. Some current models include GPS receivers, and can steer themselves to the target on some unusual flight paths. [/QUOTE] Wow. I thought that would be impossible.