# Big Bloody battleship... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 23, 2003, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871 "2003-06-23T21:31:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Squirebob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Squirebob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squirebob)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/1 "2003-06-23T21:31:29Z")
Hello there, Anyway I’m writing a novel at the moment its set in an alternate 1960’s where the second world war strated early and continues. I don’t want to give away to much of the plot but an essential part is a large Royal Navy battleship. I know the second world war was the nail in the coffin for capital ships but this ship was a mistake by an emotional admiralty wanting to keep its past glory, so i was just wondering what stats any people who are interested in ships would suggest, I am thinking truely massive. Hoprfully Squire Bob ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/2 "2003-06-23T22:08:55Z")
As a starting point, how about the never-built [Montana Class](http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_class_battleship)? They were bigger than the Iowas, which are frickin’ HUGE. ---
**Author:** ![Squirebob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Squirebob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squirebob)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/3 "2003-06-23T22:14:23Z")
I was thinking truely massive with a smaller ship that can be launched from the stern, perhaps 1600ft. In the story she is too expensive to run and nearly bancrupted the country in building her… ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/4 "2003-06-23T22:22:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squirebob \* > **I know the second world war was the nail in the coffin for capital ships…** Aircraft carriers are considered capital ships. Also, given the island hoping nature of the war in the Pacific battleships were very useful as floating artillery platforms. We recently had a discussion around here whether that is still a useful enough role to keep battleships around (general consensus seemed to be it wasn’t). However, they definitely were useful in WWII even if their role as a direct naval combatant was supersceded by the aircraft carrier. The battleship Yamato (Japanese) was even bigger than the Montana Class and it did exist. The Yamato weighed in at around 65,000 tons compared to the Montana’s roughly 60,000 tons. The Iowa class battleships, while ‘smaller’ than the Yamato and Montana, were indeed really big boats in their own right at around 45,000 tons and 2,500-3,000 crewmen. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/5 "2003-06-23T22:35:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squirebob \* > \*\*I was thinking truely massive with a smaller ship that can be launched from the stern, perhaps 1600ft. In the story she is too expensive to run and nearly bancrupted the country in building her… \*\* 1600 feet? That would indeed be a monster. That’s bigger than any ship ever built. A modern Nimitz class aircraft carrier is a bit more than a 1,000 feet long. The largest supertanker in the world is just over 1,500 feet long ( [Jahre Viking](http://www.exim-india.com/link/oldissues/oct/htmls/shipping.htm#On%20board%20T.%20T.%20Jahre%20Viking%20:%20The%20largest%20floating%20object%20on%20earth) ). Don’t forget such a ship would not only be monstrously expensive to run it would be a magnet for attack. The allies went nuts chasing down the German battleship Bismarck when it made for the open sea. I can only imagine how freaked everyone would get at a 1600 foot behemoth sailing around. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/6 "2003-06-23T22:46:57Z")
Consider– Unguided rocket bsatteries, commonly used to support amphibious assaults in WW2. Consider– a V1 type weapon, launchable from a gun barrel of the battleship. Analogious to the Shelleigh missile system the 101st airborne used in it’s air mobile tanks, until recently. Consider– A chem weapons bay. If the fighting went on for as long as you say, gas would have been used. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/7 "2003-06-23T23:40:08Z")
What year is the “present” in your book? [Here are the specs](http://www.warships1.com/BRbb18_Lion_specs.htm) of the last battleships designed for the Royal Navy, canceled at the end of the war. Not particularly inpressive, by the way. What is the mission of this battleship? Is England isolated? Have the Allies reinvaded the continent? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/8 "2003-06-24T00:44:02Z")
The _Yamato_ was still bigger than the Montana class battleships, so I think so far that’s your gold standard. But if you want your book to be realistic, I think you have to come up with a good reason to build such a huge ship, since even by the end of WWII governments were realizing that the big battleships were obsolete. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/9 "2003-06-24T00:57:05Z")
Didn’t the germans have plans for an H-class battleship that never got built? The plans were impressive and I would have liked to see a finished one, but I doubt it would have changed a thing. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/10 "2003-06-24T03:19:30Z")
A ship of 1600 feet would be astoundingly difficult to sink. The battleships of WWII that were destroyed went down HARD. They could take an astonishing amount of damage. And your ship will be twice as long and three times heavier. That might be a good reason right there for your story; the government in question builds a ship of such astounding size, featuring super heavy armor and an incredibly advanced bulkhead and flood control system, that it cannot practically be sunk by the weapons and platforms deployed by any navy of the time in anything less than several months of attack. A Floating Fortress a la “1984.” Unrealistic, of course, but what the hell? ---
**Author:** ![BraheSilver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@BraheSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BraheSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/11 "2003-06-24T03:53:41Z")
Ooh, ooh! Have it made out of [pykerite.](http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/7/floatingisland.php) You cold make a gigantic ship with that stuff. Even better is that it [was considered](http://www.combinedops.com/Pykrete.htm) during WW2. ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/12 "2003-06-24T09:36:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BraheSilver \* > \*\*Ooh, ooh! Have it made out of [pykerite.](http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/7/floatingisland.php) You cold make a gigantic ship with that stuff. Even better is that it [was considered](http://www.combinedops.com/Pykrete.htm) during WW2. \*\* **Oh. My. God.** Thank you _so_ much for those links. Who’d a thought a guy with a name like **BraheSilver** would have an interest in unusual applications of familiar materials? 😛 I’ve spent way too many hours today following SDMB threads on [why the English aren’t inventive :dubious:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=192710) and [what makes a boat float](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=192311), and then your post turns up to make it all worthwhile. The inventiveness of scientists during wartime never ceases to amaze me (Yes, **Barnes Wallis** , **Robert Watson-Watt** , **Alan Turing** , **R.V. Jones** , and **Tommy Flowers** ,I’m looking at **you** ). I now feel driven to learn more about [Geoffrey Pyke](http://www.collinslibrary.com/about1.html), > [@](#): > > a mad genius who persuaded FDR and Churchill to build giant aircraft carriers out of ice, a misfit wizard who founded and funded progressive education in Great Britain by seizing control of a third of the world supply of tin, and a mysterious impoverished hermit who spent years living on herring and broken cookies donated by a local bakery. Here’s how [Lord Louis Mountbatten, the British military’s Chief of Combined Operations](http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/7/floatingisland.php), introduced Winston Churchill to **Pykrete** in 1942. He > [@](#): > > paid a visit to Winston Churchill at his official country home, Chequers. Mountbatten had with him a small parcel of great importance. A member of Churchill’s staff apologized that the Prime Minister was at that moment in his bath. > > “Good,” said Mountbatten as he bounded up the stairs. “That’s exactly where I want him to be.” Mountbatten entered the steaming bathroom to find Churchill in the tub. It was generally not a wise thing to interrupt Sir Winston in his bathtub. > > “I have,” Mountbatten explained, “a block of a new material that I would like to put in your bath.” > > Mountbatten opened his parcel and dropped its contents between the Prime Minister’s bare legs in the water. It was a chunk of ice. > > Rather than bellow at his Chief of Combined Operations, Churchill stared at the ice intently – and so, standing by the bathtub, did Mountbatten himself. Minutes passed, and still they looked into the steaming depths of bath water before them. The ice was not melting. I hereby second **BraheSilver** ’s idea of populating **Squirebob** ’s alternate world with a Pykrete ship such as described [here](http://www.navynews.co.uk/articles/2002/0201/0002010301.asp): > [@](#): > > So artificial ‘berg-ships’, up to 2,000ft long with 30ft thick hulls, containing hangars, accommodation, a refrigeration plant and banks of diesels to power them at less than seven knots, never saw the light of day, despite the fact that torpedoes would have caused barely a dent and they were impervious to bombs. > > It was estimated that a torpedo would cause a crater a metre deep and six metres across, which could quickly be repaired using sea water, wood pulp and the cold air which would circulate throughout the berg-ship in cardboard tubes. It turns out (from the last-linked site) that Geoffrey Pyke was [Magnus Pyke](http://www.stuart.cann.freeuk.com/magnus_pyke.htm)’s cousin. The latter was a British TV “Mad Scientist”, best known in the US for appearing in the 1983 video of Thomas Dolby’s song [She Blinded Me With Science](http://mixonline.com/ar/audio_thomas_dolbys_she/). I wonder if there are any surviving relatives who have the Pyke “Mad Scientist” gene? ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/13 "2003-06-24T12:23:05Z")
I think the Pykrete idea is the most feasible (and let me add my thanks to Brahesilver for an excellent link), particularly from a financial viewpoint. Britain was virtually bankrupt early in the war - she was forced to barter valuable naval bases for 50 decrepit destroyers (see [Lend Lease](http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWlendlease.htm), particularly Eden & Wilson’s views), so designing and building an expensive steel-hulled leviathan, twice as large as existing vessels, seems a bit dubious, like the Simpsons buying a Ferrari. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/14 "2003-06-24T13:07:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*A ship of 1600 feet would be astoundingly difficult to sink. The battleships of WWII that were destroyed went down HARD. They could take an astonishing amount of damage. And your ship will be twice as long and three times heavier. > > That might be a good reason right there for your story; the government in question builds a ship of such astounding size, featuring super heavy armor and an incredibly advanced bulkhead and flood control system, that it cannot practically be sunk by the weapons and platforms deployed by any navy of the time in anything less than several months of attack. A Floating Fortress a la “1984.” Unrealistic, of course, but what the hell? \*\* As long as we’re discussing a hypothetical battleship that could withstand attack for that long, let’s go ahead and run it off a nuclear power plant. A nuke sub or nuke carrier can stay deployed for several months at a time, limited mainly by what groceries (and jet fuel, for a carrier) it stores or can be resupplied with. What would the capabilities of a BBN (nuke battleship) be? And what kind of escorts would it have? I’d imagine an entire battle group built around the BBN as flagship, with light carriers for air defense, recon, and long range strikes, a few cruisers for surface warfare, and a few destroyers or frigates for ASW defense; perhaps even a sub or two underneath. We’re talking about six to twelve ships, and a metric boatload of firepower. This is based on my understanding of a modern American carrier battle group. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/15 "2003-06-24T13:36:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squirebob \* > \*\*I was thinking truely massive with a smaller ship that can be launched from the stern, perhaps 1600ft. In the story she is too expensive to run and nearly bancrupted the country in building her… \*\* Check out super tanker construction , you may actually run into a problem with flexing of the ship. The larger the ship is built ,the more the dimensions have to take into effect the motion of the sea will have on the warship. Last thing you want to have happen, is the ship sails out of portsmouth in nice weather and the first squall sinks her by breaking her back. What you want sounds alot like an arsenal ship ,if both the montana and the vanguard class are not what you are looking for. Declan ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/16 "2003-06-24T13:38:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HPL \* > \*\*Didn’t the germans have plans for an H-class battleship that never got built? The plans were impressive and **I would have liked to see a finished one,** but I doubt it would have changed a thing. \*\* Von Tirpitz ! iss dat you? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/17 "2003-06-24T16:11:00Z")
The pykerite idea is interesting for a massive ship but I have to admit that if I read that in a book I’d stop reading (or at least if I read that before reading this thread). Even with the links I find the idea almost too bizarre to believe. If I read a story on a huge ice ship I’d think the author was on drugs while writing the story and put the book down. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/18 "2003-06-24T16:56:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > That might be a good reason right there for your story; the government in question builds a ship of such astounding size, featuring super heavy armor and an incredibly advanced bulkhead and flood control system, that it cannot practically be sunk by the weapons and platforms deployed by any navy of the time in anything less than several months of attack. \*\* “As long as we’re discussing a hypothetical battleship that could withstand attack for that long, let’s go ahead and run it off a nuclear power plant.” Nuclear powerplant implies nuclear weapons= Good buy super-battleship. ---
**Author:** ![Boo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@Boo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/19 "2003-06-24T17:09:39Z")
weren’t the US largest battleships designed to fit through the panama canal and therefore weren’t as big as some of the japaneese? a tour guide on the USS Missourri told us that last year while at Pearl Harbor…he said the New Jersey (which is the boat he served on) would clear the panama canal by less than a foot. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871/20 "2003-06-24T19:24:07Z")
This reminds me of an old _National Lampoon_ bit about enourmous airliners or cruise ships (I can’t remember which) of Brobgingnagian proportions. Vessels so big the swimming pool has a hurricane season. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-bloody-battleship/183871.md?page=2)