# Big Brother Wants To Know Who & Where You Are Passes House
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [February 11, 2005, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553 "2005-02-11T06:15:19Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/1 "2005-02-11T06:15:19Z")
> [@](#):
>
> The U.S. House of Representatives approved on Thursday a sweeping set of rules aimed at forcing states to issue all adults federally approved electronic ID cards, including driver’s licenses.
>
> Under the rules, federal employees would reject licenses or identity cards that don’t comply, which could curb Americans’ access to airplanes, trains, national parks, federal courthouses and other areas controlled by the federal government. The bill was approved by a 261-161 vote.
>
> The measure, called the Real ID Act, says that driver’s licenses and other ID cards must include a digital photograph, anticounterfeiting features and undefined “machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements” that could include a magnetic strip or RFID tag. The Department of Homeland Security would be charged with drafting the details of the regulation.
Source: [CNet News - Feb 10, 2005](http://news.com.com/House+approves+electronic+ID+cards/2100-1028_3-5571898.html?part=rss&tag=5568415&subj=news.1028.5)
Are we now so paranoid since 9/11 that we may soon hear, “Identity Papers!! Now!!” in the Land of the Once was Free and the now Home of the Whoopass?
Are MIBs not far behind??
WTF is going on??
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### Author:  [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/2 "2005-02-11T06:16:47Z")
[Real ID Act](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.418:) as recorded by Thomas.
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### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/3 "2005-02-11T06:21:52Z")
After Condi’s speech about Iran, the little sermonette I’ve been getting in the Pit from self-styled conservatives who evidently think no one deserves to draw Social Security, and now this, give me one more encroachment on what America has stood for pre 1/20/2001, and I’ll move for the immediate and indefinite suspension of Godwin’s Law.
“Those who would bargain freedom for security, will find that they have neither.”
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### Author:  [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/4 "2005-02-11T06:26:47Z")
“They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” – Ben Franklin
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” – Herman Goering
“I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.” – James Madison
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.” – James Madison
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/5 "2005-02-11T07:00:09Z")
Who is going to pay for these ID cards? It seems to me that the Feds would be forced to foot the cost otherwise we’d just have another unfunded mandate.
Marc
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### Author:  [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/6 "2005-02-11T11:13:42Z")
For better or for worse, there are way too many Left Behinders and fundamentalists for such an act to gain much traction in the US.
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### Author:  [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/7 "2005-02-11T12:33:20Z")
Silly quotes aside, what the heck is the problem with a modern ID system? It’s a bit odd to pretend that we are all swaggering mountain-men, living free from society and the governance that it brings. Any modern society needs ID, and if the technology exists to raise the standards of that ID (regarding identity verification, identity theft, et cetera) it only makes sense to adopt it.
Heck, even the ACLU is making a good argument for me to support this measure: (from the OP lined article)
> [@](#):
>
> The American Civil Liberties Union likened the new rules to a “de facto national ID card,” saying that the measure would force “states to deny driver’s licenses to undocumented immigrants”
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### Author:  [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/8 "2005-02-11T12:51:48Z")
Between Driver’s Photo licenses, Social Security cards, Draft/Military ID, private corporate cards, & computer-based marketing/credit data, we’re already there, just totally disorganized.
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/9 "2005-02-11T12:53:43Z")
Perhaps, just perhaps the states who gave ID’s to illegal immigrants had something to do with this.
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### Author:  [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/10 "2005-02-11T13:03:22Z")
It’s like Bizarro-world in here. The staunch, cave-dwelling conservatives who would have had honest-to-Og flames belching out of their ears if this had been proposed by the Clinton White House are all patting themselves on the back and congratulating each other for voting for a man who’s making America safer.
How did that Kool-Aid taste, guys?
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### Author:  [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/11 "2005-02-11T14:03:06Z")
> [@Duckster](#):
>
> are we now so paranoid …?
> WTF is going on??
What’s going on is modern life.
What are you afraid of exactly? Or do you never use a bank, cell phone, medical insurance, etc?
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### Author:  [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/12 "2005-02-11T14:13:17Z")
Could someone please explain to me why a national ID card is sinister, while having to use a Social Security card or State issued ID is not?
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### Author:  [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/13 "2005-02-11T14:19:53Z")
While **Duckster** makes valid points (by proxy, but valid nonetheless), I too must ask what’s so bad about a national ID card. We Swedes have one and haven’t suffered from it yet. I believe most developed countries have one.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/14 "2005-02-11T14:32:55Z")
Why is it that the same people that point to the socialized medical plans of Europe and insist we are behind the times if we fail to adopt something similar don’t seem to notice that those countries all have a national ID card system? We shouldn’t borrow that idea, I guess, just the one where no one has to pay for medical care.
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### Author:  [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/15 "2005-02-11T14:50:25Z")
Yes, why not? And laws requiring us to carry them with us at all time. And perhaps built in gps locators. And laws requiring us to surrender them to any government agent on demand. Perhaps have our National ID number tattooed on our wrists, to prevent identity fraud. Implanted chips would be more efficient.
And a central computer system, where honest free citizens would file their travel itineraries, so that the evil enemies would be easier to find. Those suspected of unamerican activities could be flagged, and followed much easier.
“I have here in my hand, a list of known Communist sympathizers.”
We have, once again, become a nation of cowards. And once again, the Republican party has taken the lead.
Now I understand what Conservative means.
## Tris
“The people have always some champion whom they set over them and nurse into greatness…This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.” ~ Plato ~
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### Author:  [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/16 "2005-02-11T14:54:11Z")
**Triskadecamus** , I have a nice little slope for you here. It’s a bit slippery, though, so watch your step.
Seriously, why is a national ID card so bad while other forms of ID are acceptable? Or aren’t they?
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### Author:  [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/17 "2005-02-11T15:10:36Z")
I don’t carry an ID card. I carry a driver’s license, if I drive. How good a reason do I need to have to object to the imposition of this infringement on my rights? Calling it a slippery slope doesn’t change the fact that there is a progression in the intrusion of the Government into the privacy of the individual, and any objection requires a defense, and an argument.
Who gave the right to the government to require me to have proof of my identity? What article in the Constitution permits it? Why must I have justification to recognize the first steps of tyranny, and why must I pretend that it doesn’t make the next step easier? What benefit is there to me in having an ID card issued by the Government? I know who I am.
And it isn’t the first step. Wave the terrorist label at me, and you can deny all sorts of rights in the holy name of National Security. Especially if my name is Amahd. And those rights are specifically protected by the Constitution and Bill of rights, yet still holding people without trials is the preferred choice of my government, when they can get away with it. And the Republican Party is guarding their flank at every opportunity, because power is more important than principles.
Am I the only one who remembers when the Republicans screamed and hollered about the use of Social Security numbers for identification purposes? Are the refutations about slippery slopes only applicable to out of power party arguments? Perhaps it’s lack of imagination. The Conservatives cannot imagine loosing control of the power they are creating.
## Tris
“The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them.” ~ Albert Einstein ~
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### Author:  [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/18 "2005-02-11T15:10:40Z")
I lived in France, which has a national ID card system, for ten years and never noted any particular abuses of the system by the government, nor did I hear any particular complaint from the citizens I talked to. Here, if anyone was really looking for me I’d be pretty easy to find, with or without a national ID card. I have to consider this not much to get excited about.
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### Author:  [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/19 "2005-02-11T15:17:41Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#):
>
> And it isn’t the first step. Wave the terrorist label at me, and you can deny all sorts of rights in the holy name of National Security. Especially if my name is Amahd. And those rights are specifically protected by the Constitution and Bill of rights, yet still holding people without trials is the preferred choice of my government, when they can get away with it.
Absolutely, and this I agree totally with. I have in fact started at least two threads on the subject.
However, I feel compelled to point out the following:
Being abducted and detained without probable cause, without access to a lawyer, without a fair trial, without ability to contest your detention: big deal.
National ID card: not a big deal.
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### Author:  [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)
#### Post date: [February 11, 2005, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/20 "2005-02-11T17:04:57Z")
If it is no big deal then it shouldn’t matter if we oppose it.
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