# Big Brother Wants To Know Who & Where You Are Passes House **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2005, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553 "2005-02-11T06:15:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/41 "2005-02-12T05:11:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Clever or not, Not. > [@](#): > > it’s a fair question… Not hardly. It’s just a not-so-subtle way of not dealing with a Republican congress putting this measure through. Rather than just say, ‘Hey, they did something we like’ (Or are on the right path or whatever), some people want to play the smoke-and-mirrors ‘CLINTON!!!@!@!’ game. It’s not a question, it’s a redirect. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/42 "2005-02-12T06:57:40Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Not. > > Not hardly. It’s just a not-so-subtle way of not dealing with a Republican congress putting this measure through. Rather than just say, ‘Hey, they did something we like’ (Or are on the right path or whatever), some people want to play the smoke-and-mirrors ‘CLINTON!!!@!@!’ game. > > It’s not a question, it’s a redirect. Still don’t have an answer, eh? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2005, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/43 "2005-02-12T07:12:29Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > It’s not a question, it’s a redirect. And you redirected back. Good for you. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/44 "2005-02-13T16:30:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Put the Tribunate in charge of the Census, too; people will be more ready to answer personal questions honestly that way. What relevance does willingness to answer personal questions have to the Census? The fact that I am 1 (one) citizen residing in Virginia is hardly “personal” information. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/45 "2005-02-13T16:35:11Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I just wonder what our Republican friends reaction would have been if Bill Clinton had proposed this. I assume this is a rhetorical question. Bill Clinton’s administration **did** float a similar proposal, and conservative reaction was apoplectic. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/46 "2005-02-13T16:56:12Z")
Same as many other people, I have moved around quite a bit. I see no reason for yet another agency to monitor my movements. If we get a federal ID with a home address, it is just one more piece of paper I need to change each time I move. Multiply that by a few million since I’m not the only one who has moved around. My residence, and everyone else’s is already on file with plenty of agencies - state ID, tax records, DoD and DCMA (federal work) ID, postal records, junk mail listings, etc. The fact is, “they” already know where we are. The information is there already. Anyone intent on Doing Evil can circumvent the whole system. How hard is it really to go anywhere you want? Cars, trains, planes, and nobody would know where you went unless you wanted them to. You do your dirty work and then come back. Or, just move and not file a change of address form. This new system is just another that only works on the “honest guy” who plays along, and that person is not the one to be watching anyway. Will the “honest guy” next have to make an application and get permission to move also? If there is a bureaucratic delay from the time someone moves and the time he gets a new ID, will he be fined or arrested? “Mr. Smith, we see you’ve moved from one state to another several times. Would you care to explain why?” In MY OPINION, this is a do-nothing proposal. It would be a bureaucratic disaster. It will cost millions to implement. It will not have any effect on any real “supervillains”. This is one area where I tend to take the “old fashioned” conservative view, with a lot of the libertarian tossed in for good measure. It is an invasion of privacy, restricts the freedom of movement and is a waste of money. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/47 "2005-02-13T17:59:21Z")
Hm, national ID… picture of me [blech, i looked that bad?] check. ID number, check. electronic access to data encoded on it, check. american citicenship validated, check. Home address, check. Travel information[in computer database] check. Oh, wait a sec, that is my PASSPORT… :smack: Hangs out next to my retired military dependant ID and drivers license. Hm, seem to have lost my SSN card…but it is on my military ID so that is ok. ---
**Author:** ![DeepMauve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9adbd/32.png) [@DeepMauve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeepMauve)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/48 "2005-02-13T18:11:23Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Silly quotes aside, what the heck is the problem with a modern ID system? It’s a bit odd to pretend that we are all swaggering mountain-men, living free from society and the governance that it brings. Any modern society needs ID, and if the technology exists to raise the standards of that ID (regarding identity verification, identity theft, et cetera) it only makes sense to adopt it. > > Heck, even the ACLU is making a good argument for me to support this measure: (from the OP lined article) Silly quotes aside? SILLY QUOTES ASIDE??? SILLY??? Who are you to so quickly and casually marginalize deep, profound quotes by some of history’s greatest thinkers? Quotes that are not only perfectly relevant to the argument at hand, but should get every single poster on this board thinking very strongly about what their government is doing and how they’re going about it. Just to re-state, what’s happening here, I will re-post these ‘silly’ quotes: “They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” – Ben Franklin “Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” – Herman Goering “I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.” – James Madison “If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.” – James Madison and I’d like to say kudos to Duckster for originally posting these. Brutus… we HAVE id. Everyone does. If you think these quotes are silly, then why not actually comment on them rather than brush them aside without thought. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/49 "2005-02-13T21:24:04Z")
It’s just his style. The mountain man thing would actually be sort of nice except for 1. risk of starvation 2. death by exposure during brutal mountain winters Other than that, the idea of roaming free without asking anyone’s by your leave can look pretty damn appealing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/50 "2005-02-13T22:28:20Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > What relevance does willingness to answer personal questions have to the Census? The fact that I am 1 (one) citizen residing in Virginia is hardly “personal” information. Strange as it may seen, some people are reluctant to answer Census questions because they want the government knowing as little as possible about them – and some are illegal aliens who fear anything they tell the Census Bureau will be passed on to Immigration. Putting the Tribunate in charge of the Census (and the national ID card and all vital-records databases connected with it) would reduce these fears – somewhat. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/51 "2005-02-13T22:30:06Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Same as many other people, I have moved around quite a bit. I see no reason for yet another agency to monitor my movements. If we get a federal ID with a home address, it is just one more piece of paper I need to change each time I move. To the contrary, **Steve** – if it’s done right, your national ID card would be the **only** piece of paper you have to change when you move; everything else then would be changed automatically. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/52 "2005-02-13T23:08:00Z")
> [@DeepMauve](#): > > Who are you to so quickly and casually marginalize deep, profound quotes by some of history’s greatest thinkers? Quotes that are not only perfectly relevant to the argument at hand, but should get every single poster on this board thinking very strongly about what their government is doing and how they’re going about it. Heh, I dunno that I would put Goering as one of history’s greatest thinkers, but to each their own. Regardless, whipping out a handful of oft-used quotes isn’t exactly the most original way to respond to these topics. (I’ll admit, I am a bit shocked that some _1984_ or _Brave New World_ quotes didn’t make the cut!) It is generally preferable to form your own opinion than to just point at a quote and say ‘What he said’. > [@](#): > > Brutus… we HAVE id. Everyone does. Exactly! That is what makes oppposition to updated forms of ID more puzzling. What next, limit law enforcement officers to slower cars, to ‘raise the cost’ of enforcing the law? Mandate that cops must be Fatty McFatties, to give us citizens a good chance of outrunning them? > [@](#): > > If you think these quotes are silly, then why not actually comment on them rather than brush them aside without thought. Logical not that is. If I think them silly, why should I comment on them? Besides, it isn’t so much that the quotes themselves are silly, it’s that they are flogged again and again when these topics come up. _A witty saying proves nothing._ - **Voltaire** ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2005, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/53 "2005-02-13T23:40:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > To the contrary, **Steve** – if it’s done right, your national ID card would be the **only** piece of paper you have to change when you move; everything else then would be changed automatically. That’s a mighty big “if”. I’m sort of skeptical on what sort of efficiency it would have, for the return, for starters. Then what I forgot before, is the cost for civilian records - credit cards, etc to be modified to match up and track accurately. I’m just skeptical that any benefit would outweigh the cost and the hassle. Americans always do the right thing, after exhausting all other alternatives. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/54 "2005-02-14T16:18:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > if it’s done right, your national ID card would be the only piece of paper you have to change when you move; everything else then would be changed automatically. A system with a single point of massive failure designed right in. How clever. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/55 "2005-02-14T16:21:19Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > it isn’t so much that the quotes themselves are silly, it’s that they are flogged again and again when these topics come up. That’s a meaningless objection. It’s like complaining that people keep mentioning Neville Chamberlain at Munich every single time someone suggests appeasing an aggressor. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/56 "2005-02-14T16:24:29Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Oh, wait a sec, that is my PASSPORT… :smack: For the **limited** number of cases where a secure ID is legitimately required (voting, border crossing, and the like), a document at least as bulky as a passport (preferably bulkier – along the lines of book-sized) would work. It needs to be designed in a way that precludes any expectation that it will be routinely carried (a card is right out). Such design provides the necessary fire wall against the sort of mission creep that has overtaken Social Security numbers. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/57 "2005-02-14T17:48:29Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > For the **limited** number of cases where a secure ID is legitimately required (voting, border crossing, and the like), a document at least as bulky as a passport (preferably bulkier – along the lines of book-sized) would work. It needs to be designed in a way that precludes any expectation that it will be routinely carried (a card is right out). > > Such design provides the necessary fire wall against the sort of mission creep that has overtaken Social Security numbers. but if it is to be the US ‘universal’ ID, it _has_ to be carried all the time. Although my passport is a convenient size to carry around with me=) Personally, if the drivers license/auto insurance/various clearance and qual card functions could be added to my passport to make it truely universal I would love it=) ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/58 "2005-02-14T18:08:06Z")
It is not against the law for me to be out and about without a single piece of official identifying material on my person, as long as I’m not driving a motor vehicle. And sometimes I do exactly that. I don’t necessarily _want_ law enforcement or anyone else to have immediate access to my legal, financial, psychiatric, educational, political, and residential track record. I ain’t carrying one of these damn things around. I’ll get one and keep it at home and take it with me only when I’m going somewhere I expect to need it. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/59 "2005-02-14T18:57:29Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > but if it is to be the US ‘universal’ ID, it _has_ to be carried all the time Not at all. For use as an ID **on the few occasions on which an ID may be legitimately required** it can be quite bulky – and **should** be quite bulky, to prevent the sort of mission creep that sets in when officials (government and otherwise) assume that people are going to just routinely carry it. > [@](#): > > Although my passport is a convenient size to carry around with me Which is why I suggested that a secure ID limited to its proper uses ought to be larger than that. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553/60 "2005-02-14T19:40:01Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > That’s a meaningless objection. It’s like complaining that people keep mentioning Neville Chamberlain at Munich every single time someone suggests appeasing an aggressor. The hell you say? Ol’ Neville _was_ at Munich, while I don’t think that Goering or Benny Franklin have much, if any, direct input into this piece of legislation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-brother-wants-to-know-who-where-you-are-passes-house/289553.md?page=4)