# Big Government is Failing - Again **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946 "2010-05-18T23:01:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/21 "2010-05-19T01:46:40Z")
Like I always say, a little socialism goes a long way (more is not necessarily better). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/22 "2010-05-19T01:49:13Z")
> [@erez](#): > > Since this discussion was getting of the OP’s main point, which is undoubtedly correct, I will point to [http://www.heritage.org/index/Explore.aspx](http://www.heritage.org/index/Explore.aspx). Here are the countries with the most economic freedom, as defined by the Heritage Foundation: Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, Switzerland, Canada, United States, Denmark, Chile. Here are the countries with the least: North Korea, Zimbabwe, Cuba, Eritrea, Burma, Venezuela, Libya, Congo, Turkmenistan, Solomon Islands. It doesn’t get much clearer than this. So… US is among the most free economies. US led a financial collapse that took much of the rest of the world with it. I agree, it doesn’t get much clearer than that. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/23 "2010-05-19T01:51:35Z")
> [@erez](#): > > Since this discussion was getting of the OP’s main point, which is undoubtedly correct, I will point to [http://www.heritage.org/index/Explore.aspx](http://www.heritage.org/index/Explore.aspx). Here are the countries with the most economic freedom, as defined by the Heritage Foundation: Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, Switzerland, Canada, United States, Denmark, Chile. Here are the countries with the least: North Korea, Zimbabwe, Cuba, Eritrea, Burma, Venezuela, Libya, Congo, Turkmenistan, Solomon Islands. It doesn’t get much clearer than this. Yeah, ok, that’s clear. What isn’t clear is what you want us to think based on this list. Or should those names, including one country that **Sam** lists as a failed or failing “socialist” country (Ireland), be enough to make us just say “wow, the OP was right”? Because they don’t make me want to say that. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/24 "2010-05-19T02:03:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Since I have no interest in starving to death in a famine or suffering any of the other horrible effects of an uncontrolled market, never. How dare you let your own happiness or survival get in the way of the workings of the almighty Market, whose invisible hand will reach out and fix everything – eventually, at least for those who survive? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/25 "2010-05-19T02:08:22Z")
> [@erez](#): > > Since this discussion was getting of the OP’s main point, which is undoubtedly correct, I will point to [http://www.heritage.org/index/Explore.aspx](http://www.heritage.org/index/Explore.aspx). Here are the countries with the most economic freedom, as defined by the Heritage Foundation: Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, Switzerland, Canada, United States, Denmark, Chile. Here are the countries with the least: North Korea, Zimbabwe, Cuba, Eritrea, Burma, Venezuela, Libya, Congo, Turkmenistan, Solomon Islands. It doesn’t get much clearer than this. Well, since the OP’s specifically mentioned Big Government and not Economic Freedom, let’s sort the data thusly: Government Spending Top Ten 1. Burma 2. Singapore 3. Macau 4. Turkmenistan 5. Central African Republic 6. Bangladesh 7. Guatemala 8. Hong Kong 9. Guinea 10. Cambodia Bottom Ten (where rankings exist) 1. Lesotho 2. Austria 3. Bosnia and Herzegovina 4. Guyana 5. Hungary 6. Denmark 7. France 8. Sweden 9. Seychelles 10. Eritrea Let none question the methodology of the 1-10 ranking system, for it is inviolable! ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/26 "2010-05-19T02:08:50Z")
> [@Enfant Terrible](#): > > It really was more for the lulz (well, that and to mock the idea – not yours --that Fannie and Freddie were the root cause of the problem) but you knew that. > > In any case, am I correct in presuming that your recommendation for the financial crisis was ‘do nothing’? Let all the banks that would collapse–yes, due to their own malfeasance–collapse. > > I guess there is something to the idea, idealistically speaking. And I hear soup lines serve a very nice chicken noodle on Wednesdays, too. Win-win! Are banks your example of an industry that is loosely regulated? Because there are many more government laws that apply to banks than, for example, to dot-com companies. Why do you think the banks were able to make their huge profits in boom times? Do you think that being able to borrow at extremely low rates from the Fed helped? I never said that I’m against smart laws. Transparency, not allowing financial institutions to become too big to fail, keeping leverage in check are some examples. The government does have a role in creating rules, improving competition and creating a level playing field, but it’s not the same as micromanaging every aspect of even small businesses’ practices. Corporatism-government mix (ex. Goldman Sachs + federal government) is a recipe for disaster. ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/27 "2010-05-19T02:15:14Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Yeah, ok, that’s clear. What isn’t clear is what you want us to think based on this list. Or should those names, including one country that **Sam** lists as a failed or failing “socialist” country (Ireland), be enough to make us just say “wow, the OP was right”? Because they don’t make me want to say that. Does it make you want to say that a lot of economic freedom is good for country’s economy and no economic freedom is bad? Because that was my point, as proved by these lists of countries. Government’s interference in business, investment, property rights, lots of red tape, rules and regulation, etc. are strongly correlated to bad economic performance. Do you argue with that? ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/28 "2010-05-19T02:15:58Z")
> [@erez](#): > > Transparency, not allowing financial institutions to become too big to fail, keeping leverage in check are some examples. Well what the fuck do you think the rest of us want? Give us this and I, for one, will be perfectly happy. Do you understand that we currently don’t have this? And do you further understand that we are now farther away from this because the Republicans wanted all the rules gone? If not, come back when have clue. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/29 "2010-05-19T02:31:08Z")
> [@erez](#): > > Are banks your example of an industry that is loosely regulated? Because there are many more government laws that apply to banks than, for example, to dot-com companies. Why do you think the banks were able to make their huge profits in boom times? Do you think that being able to borrow at extremely low rates from the Fed helped? > > I never said that I’m against smart laws. Transparency, not allowing financial institutions to become too big to fail, keeping leverage in check are some examples. The government does have a role in creating rules, improving competition and creating a level playing field, but it’s not the same as micromanaging every aspect of even small businesses’ practices. Corporatism-government mix (ex. Goldman Sachs + federal government) is a recipe for disaster. Banks are my example of what happens when sensible regulations are dismantled to serve special interests. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/30 "2010-05-19T02:31:31Z")
> [@erez](#): > > Since this discussion was getting of the OP’s main point, which is undoubtedly correct, I will point to [http://www.heritage.org/index/Explore.aspx](http://www.heritage.org/index/Explore.aspx). Here are the countries with the most economic freedom, as defined by the Heritage Foundation: Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, Switzerland, Canada, **United States** , Denmark, Chile. Here are the countries with the least: North Korea, Zimbabwe, Cuba, Eritrea, Burma, Venezuela, Libya, Congo, Turkmenistan, Solomon Islands. It doesn’t get much clearer than this. I bolded a country who’s incompetent lack of banking regulation caused a global financial catastrophe. It doesn’t get much clearer then that, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/31 "2010-05-19T02:31:37Z")
> [@Enfant Terrible](#): > > Well, since the OP’s specifically mentioned Big Government and not Economic Freedom, let’s sort the data thusly: > > Government Spending > > Top Ten > > 1. Burma > 2. Singapore > 3. Macau > 4. Turkmenistan > 5. Central African Republic > 6. Bangladesh > 7. Guatemala > 8. Hong Kong > 9. Guinea > 10. Cambodia > > Bottom Ten (where rankings exist) > > 1. Lesotho > 2. Austria > 3. Bosnia and Herzegovina > 4. Guyana > 5. Hungary > 6. Denmark > 7. France > 8. Sweden > 9. Seychelles > 10. Eritrea > > Let none question the methodology of the 1-10 ranking system, for it is inviolable! Sorry, but you misread the data (but they should’ve made it clearer). “-” on the “Government Spending” doesn’t mean no data, it means 0, if the overall score is shown. You can confirm this by clicking on each country’s name. Therefore, here is the real bottom ten list: 1. Zimbabwe 2. Solomon Islands 3. North Korea 4. Micronesia 5. Maldives 6. Kiribati 7. Cuba 8. Eritrea 9. Seychelles 10. Sweden You are wrong if you think that the OP only includes levels of government spending in his definition of “Big Government.” He does not. For example, he specifically mentions “more regulation.” Therefore, not including things like “Business Freedom”, “Trade Freedom,” “Investment Freedom,” “Labor Freedom” by you from the data I linked to, and only including “Government Spending,” is highly misleading. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/32 "2010-05-19T02:34:23Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Well what the fuck do you think the rest of us want? Give us this and I, for one, will be perfectly happy. Do you understand that we currently don’t have this? And do you further understand that we are now farther away from this because the Republicans wanted all the rules gone? If not, come back when have clue. I second this. I would _love_ to see real transparency and limit the size of banks to individually take down the economy. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/33 "2010-05-19T02:36:04Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I bolded a country who’s incompetent lack of banking regulation caused a global financial catastrophe. > > It doesn’t get much clearer then that, indeed. I posted much the same comment as well and it is being dutifully ignored. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/34 "2010-05-19T02:38:37Z")
> [@erez](#): > > Sorry, but you misread the data (but they should’ve made it clearer). “-” on the “Government Spending” doesn’t mean no data, it means 0, if the overall score is shown. You can confirm this by clicking on each country’s name. Therefore, here is the real bottom ten list: > > 1. Zimbabwe > 2. Solomon Islands > 3. North Korea > 4. Micronesia > 5. Maldives > 6. Kiribati > 7. Cuba > 8. Eritrea > 9. Seychelles > 10. Sweden > > You are wrong if you think that the OP only includes levels of government spending in his definition of “Big Government.” He does not. For example, he specifically mentions “more regulation.” Therefore, not including things like “Business Freedom”, “Trade Freedom,” “Investment Freedom,” “Labor Freedom” by you from the data I linked to, and only including “Government Spending,” is highly misleading. _Mea culpa_ regarding the meaning of the Heritage Foundation’s dashes. However, I consider ill-defined terms such as Business Freedom, Trade Freedom, Investment Freedom, and Labor Freedom to be so subjective and qualitative that they are worthless except as a data point of this group’s opinion. Government spending, at least, can be measured in currency. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/35 "2010-05-19T02:40:26Z")
> [@erez](#): > > I never said that I’m against smart laws. Transparency, not allowing financial institutions to become too big to fail, keeping leverage in check are some examples. The government does have a role in creating rules, improving competition and creating a level playing field, but it’s not the same as micromanaging every aspect of even small businesses’ practices. Corporatism-government mix (ex. Goldman Sachs + federal government) is a recipe for disaster. Whoever said they were in favor of stupid laws? The OP starts off with the strawman that “The Left” is entirely against capitalism and mindlessly goes around increasing the size of government. Was the economic downturn caused by big government or did deregulation play a role? Was the bank bailout a creature of Loony Left or Socialist Paradise thinking? Or was it an of-the-moment emergency measure? ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/36 "2010-05-19T02:43:57Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Well what the fuck do you think the rest of us want? Give us this and I, for one, will be perfectly happy. Do you understand that we currently don’t have this? And do you further understand that we are now farther away from this because the Republicans wanted all the rules gone? If not, come back when have clue. You’re not cut out for this sort of a discussion, are you? You don’t seem to be able to make a point without blowing a gasket. What makes you think I care about defending Republicans or Democrats? They both had more than enough chances to implement rules that would improve competition and create a level playing field and they both failed to do so. However, neither of them failed to pressure government-sponsored enterprises into making the problem much worse. Just because your particular partisan fervor makes you blind to the failure by Democrats, it doesn’t mean that others are so blind too. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/37 "2010-05-19T02:46:54Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Was the bank bailout a creature of Loony Left or Socialist Paradise thinking? Or was it an of-the-moment emergency measure? To be fair the bank bailout was initially a creation of conservatives. Funny how it became an evil deed of the Left in the minds of some here. > [@](#): > > U.S. President George W. Bush, saying “our entire economy is in danger,” urged Congress to approve his administration’s $700 billion bailout proposal. > > SOURCE: [Bush: Bailout plan necessary to deal with crisis - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/24/bush.bailout/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/38 "2010-05-19T02:47:21Z")
> [@Enfant Terrible](#): > > _Mea culpa_ regarding the meaning of the Heritage Foundation’s dashes. > > However, I consider ill-defined terms such as Business Freedom, Trade Freedom, Investment Freedom, and Labor Freedom to be so subjective and qualitative that they are worthless except as a data point of this group’s opinion. > > Government spending, at least, can be measured in currency. Many of these terms are defined quantitatively. For example, Trade Freedom: [http://www.heritage.org/index/Trade-Freedom.aspx](http://www.heritage.org/index/Trade-Freedom.aspx) . Others also have rather objective definitions. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/39 "2010-05-19T02:50:08Z")
> [@erez](#): > > You’re not cut out for this sort of a discussion, are you? You don’t seem to be able to make a point without blowing a gasket. What makes you think I care about defending Republicans or Democrats? They both had more than enough chances to implement rules that would improve competition and create a level playing field and they both failed to do so. However, neither of them failed to pressure government-sponsored enterprises into making the problem much worse. Just because your particular partisan fervor makes you blind to the failure by Democrats, it doesn’t mean that others are so blind too. Please point out where I defend Democrats for their past actions. The fact is that the OP specifically blames the “left” (which is code for Democrats) for the current crises based on their interference with the all-knowing, all-powerful free markets. You jumped in with some sort of defense of…well, I don’t know what exactly. You seem to treasure free markets, but then you turn around a say exactly what many Democrats have been saying while somehow claiming that they want soething else. Maybe I’m the one tilting at windmills here, it might help if you’d lay out a specific thesis that could be addressed. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/40 "2010-05-19T02:51:53Z")
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