# Big Government is Failing - Again **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946 "2010-05-18T23:01:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/41 "2010-05-19T02:52:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **Sam** : Far be it from me to defend “Big Government”, but your OP looks like you’re throwing a bunch of stuff at the wall to see what sticks. > > So, I’ll just pick the one that looked the most obvious: Venezuela is a “socialist paradise”? That looks like a strawman to me. “socialist paradise” was tongue in cheek. And yes, I took a shotgun approach. My point wasn’t to create a complete list. My point was that ‘capitalism’ was read its death sentence after the financial crisis, as though a failure in one (highly regulated) industry was a blanket indictment of capitalism itself. So I simply pointed to a list of government failures, and wondered why they weren’t being seen as an indictment of the concept of central planning and big government overall. Mostly, it was just a polemic. Call it witnessing if you want. Mostly, I’m just tired and sick of seeing another verse in the ‘government will save us!’ chorus. Every time there’s a colossal failure of government, and there have been many, we hear nothing but excuses or claims that the particular failure in question has nothing to do with any other government. But the failures keep coming. In the meantime, the same people are declaring Capitalism a failure. Capitalism is responsible for the largest increase in human living standards in history. It’s responsible for the material well-being we enjoy today. It continues to work extremely well, with goods and services flowing around the world with great efficiency. But hey, let’s throw that on the ash-heap of history and get back to setting up the next politburo. I’m not directing this at you. I’m just venting. I haven’t been in a very good mood lately, and I’m getting tired. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/42 "2010-05-19T02:58:35Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > In the meantime, the same people are declaring Capitalism a failure. Who are these “people” Sam? That’s a serious question. I’ve seen many people claim that the financial crisis points out issues with unregulated capitalism, but that’s a far cry from declaring all of capitalism a failure. As for the financial industry being considered “highly regulated”, that’s been a joke since the late 90s. They were barely regulated on paper and even less so in practice. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/43 "2010-05-19T03:05:26Z")
> [@erez](#): > > Many of these terms are defined quantitatively. For example, Trade Freedom: [http://www.heritage.org/index/Trade-Freedom.aspx](http://www.heritage.org/index/Trade-Freedom.aspx) . Others also have rather objective definitions. Ah, good. I was looking for that but could not find their formulas for the life of me. I will study this in detail, particularly the NTB, as the presence of government-financed research and regional development measures as part of this formula are … interesting… to say the least. But it’s good to know that there’s a methodology to be studied after all. **Sam** , I can understand crankiness and wanting to vent. But I think you might reconsider the premise that capitalism was being read its last rites, or provide examples. At least in this thread, the commonality our little coffeeklatsch is that it is poorly regulatedcapitalism that needs to be reined in, not the end of capitalism as the go-to economic system. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/44 "2010-05-19T03:05:26Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > When the financial crisis hit, a lot of people on the left claimed that the crisis was an indictment of the capitalist system. They called for new levels of government involvement in the economy - more regulation, more spending, more social programs, more ‘investment’ by government in energy, technology, jobs, you name it. > > Well, here we are a couple of years later. I’m looking around the world, and it seems to me that Capitalism is doing just fine - I can still buy the products I want at good prices, there are no shortages, no real price spikes. Capitalism is doing fine because of the stimulus package. Big government saved the economy. > [@](#): > > But then I look at all the places where government has stuck its nose in - the financial bailout packages look to be a disaster, with huge gobs of taxpayer and borrowed money being shoveled to crony capitalists like Goldman Sachs. In the meantime, the government’s predictions for job creation in the U.S. have been wildly off the mark. > > The net effect of these government policies is to create a huge moral hazard by setting the expectation of bailouts if a company is ‘too big to fail’ - socializing risk while keeping profits private - just as those companies want it. The bailout wasn’t the most efficient way to handle the crisis, but it was much better than letting the free market fix itself. > [@](#): > > In Europe, the social democracies are failing. Their spending is out of control, their debt is out of control, and now EU taxpayers have had to pony up to bail out Greece, with Portugal, Italy, Spain, and Ireland on the bubble. Now the entire EU structure itself is at risk of collapsing. EU is in trouble because they can’t regulate their Union like a country can. They are in trouble because there is no strong central power that can regulate the Euro. > [@](#): > > The U.S. has a 107 trillion dollar federal entitlement shortfall, a monstrous deficit, and skyrocketing debt. Which we would not have to worry about if we raised taxes. > [@](#): > > The states with the biggest governments and highest taxes are failing. California and New York are bleeding their best citizens as they pack up and move to states where government is less intrusive. California is near bankruptcy. > > Most states are running huge deficits in their public pension and health care plans - deficits that would put private fund managers in jail. Estimates of the total shortfall range from 450 billion to about 3 trillion dollars. Bailing out just the state governments would cost as much as 30 times as much as the cost of TARP. The NYS Legislature is a giant shit hole. But the answer is more efficient big government and a more involved citizenry, not a lack of government all together. Same goes for California. > [@](#): > > The ‘socialist paradise’ of Venezuela is collapsing. It’s mired in debt and its economy is moribund, despite high oil prices. Venezuela’s big government isn’t the same as what we have here in the US. You can’t compare the two. > [@](#): > > So my question is this: For those of you so quick to condemn capitalism after the financial crisis, just what will it take for you to admit that big government or central planning is not the best model for a society or an economy? Do we have to wait for California to fail? For the Euro Zone to collapse under its own weight? For baby boomers to find out en masse that their ‘savings’ had long ago been spent by politicians eager to buy current votes, and that the government has run out of other people’s money to pay them with? > > At what point do you cry “Enough!” and let the market work and leave people alone to manage their own affairs? I can point to all the times the US economy nearly collapsed without regulation and ask you the same thing. When are you going to scream enough? From my point of view all the economic crises you point to were created because of a lack of regulation. You some how point to government actions (bailouts) taken after the crises as an example of a big government failure, ignoring the fact that these actions were made necessary by the deregulation that led to the crises in the first place. I left out your examples about Japan and Spain, other posters have covered them. ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/45 "2010-05-19T03:11:50Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I bolded a country who’s incompetent lack of banking regulation caused a global financial catastrophe. > > It doesn’t get much clearer then that, indeed. Do you realize that just these other countries have not been any more competent in regulating their banks? For example, leverage of European banks was much higher than even American banks. You can also read [http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/23/business/worldbusiness/23iht-regulate.4.16423082.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/23/business/worldbusiness/23iht-regulate.4.16423082.html). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/46 "2010-05-19T03:20:53Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > My point was that ‘capitalism’ was read its death sentence after the financial crisis, as though a failure in one (highly regulated) industry was a blanket indictment of capitalism itself. Perhaps this is pedantic but “Capitalism” is about as viable as “Communism”. Neither is workable in its pure form on this planet. We have seen what unregulated Capitalism looks like (see “Robber Barons” for a start…there is more). It does not work. Provably and not theoretically. Bottom line is regulation is absolutely needed. Lack of it led to the Great Depression, it led to the current financial crisis. These are the facts on the ground. So explain to me what Capitalism means to you for the purposes of this thread. Laissez Faire government? Some regulation? If some regulation then what regulation is ok? Where is the Left wrong and the Right, well, right? ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/47 "2010-05-19T03:32:12Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Please point out where I defend Democrats for their past actions. The fact is that the OP specifically blames the “left” (which is code for Democrats) for the current crises based on their interference with the all-knowing, all-powerful free markets. You jumped in with some sort of defense of…well, I don’t know what exactly. You seem to treasure free markets, but then you turn around a say exactly what many Democrats have been saying while somehow claiming that they want soething else. Maybe I’m the one tilting at windmills here, it might help if you’d lay out a specific thesis that could be addressed. You attack Republicans because you say that the bank deregulation (I’m assuming you mean the repeal of Glass-Steagall) caused the mortgage crisis. Is this correct? This bill was passed 90-8 in the Senate and 362-57 in the House, so there was a bi-partisan support in the Congress. It was signed into law by Clinton. Therefore, your attack on Republicans specifically “because the Republicans wanted all the rules gone?” is very confused. It is also very unclear that keeping these regulations in place would have prevented the crisis. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/48 "2010-05-19T03:40:11Z")
> [@Enfant Terrible](#): > > \ At least in this thread, the commonality our little coffeeklatsch is that it is poorly regulatedcapitalism that needs to be reined in, not the end of capitalism as the go-to economic system. I’ll agree with that. I think it would also be an error to overlook the role corruption played in the financial meltdown - it wasn’t simply capitalism that fucked everyone over. Can I beg people to not go down the US American partisan bitchfest route and ruin what can be an interesting conversation? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/49 "2010-05-19T03:41:29Z")
Another stunning display by Sam of fanciful analysis and revisionist history. Blaming “Government” for the failures of a capitalist economy isn’t helpful at all because government policy ultimately guides _any_ economic system. The decision to be purely _laissez-faire_ requires just as much government input as the decision to maintain a command economy. Pure free markets aren’t the “true” form of capitalism, any more than the Soviet system was the “true” form of communism. In fact, the United States has exhibited different forms of capitalism [throughout its history](http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/feature/2010/05/18/next_american_capitalism_model). > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > But then I look at all the places where government has stuck its nose in - the financial bailout packages look to be a disaster, with huge gobs of taxpayer and borrowed money being shoveled to crony capitalists like Goldman Sachs. Cronyism was certainly a factor, but that doesn’t come close to explaining why the banking industry was bailed out. The reason they became too big to fail in the first place was because of a _lack_ of regulation, not because the government actively made the financial industry what it became. All the old legal and regulatory safeguards that were enacted with the wisdom of the Depression were shredded to benefit some influential high-rollers. So, I guess what you’re saying is regulating them to begin with was government interference with the free market, yet removing the regulations was government sticking its nose in? > [@](#): > > In Europe, the social democracies are failing. Their spending is out of control, their debt is out of control, and now EU taxpayers have had to pony up to bail out Greece, with Portugal, Italy, Spain, and Ireland on the bubble. Now the entire EU structure itself is at risk of collapsing. This, again, completely mischaracterizes the problem. Europe’s problems are the result of having a common currency without real economic unity between the member nations. What happened to the PIIGS is a normal part of the worldwide economy: investment flowed into the countries, driving up wages, and now wages need to come down so they can remain competitive, only there’s no way for them to achieve this other than grinding deflation or default. And Greece is being bailed out so that its banks will pay the money it owes German, French, and Dutch banks. All those banks are interconnected in ways that can make failure in one country spread like a contagion throughout all of Europe. Of course, everyone knows that Greece is in this mess because their citizens are a bunch of spendthrifts, right? [Wrong.](http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2010/05/german-households-owe-more-than-greeces-do.html) Speaking of Germany, they’re the 2nd largest exporting nation on the planet. China is tops. Do you think they have unrestricted free market capitalism? [Here’s a fun little map](http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2010/04/global-debt-relative-to-gdp/) showing global debt to GDP ratios. I guess we should all start emulating Australia. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/50 "2010-05-19T03:43:54Z")
> [@erez](#): > > You attack Republicans because you say that the bank deregulation (I’m assuming you mean the repeal of Glass-Steagall) caused the mortgage crisis. Is this correct? This bill was passed 90-8 in the Senate and 362-57 in the House, so there was a bi-partisan support in the Congress. It was signed into law by Clinton. Therefore, your attack on Republicans specifically “because the Republicans wanted all the rules gone?” is very confused. It is also very unclear that keeping these regulations in place would have prevented the crisis. I think Glass-Steagall (being repealed) gets a bit too much of the blame but I confess I am not expert enough to really sort it all out as it is complicated. There were plenty of holes that allowed banks to bypass Glass-Steagall. As I understand it repeal allowed them to get into underwriting in a big way and they dove into mortgage backed securities. Presumably though they were only going for high-rated securities but, as we know, the lack of transparency and conflict of interest in the rating agencies meant that AAA securities were nothing like AAA in reality. Problem is everyone can point to someone else as the culprit. The banks would be fine if the rating agencies were doing their job. If the SEC was not asleep at the wheel this wouldn’t have happened and so on. Personally I think this was a “Somebody Else’s Problem Field” issue. Everyone was happy to go along with the fiction. I cannot believe these banks were so stupid as to be utterly oblivious to what was going on. But hey, they were making money and someone else should stop it. Except everyone else thought the same thing so like a bunch of lemmings they ran off the cliff together. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/51 "2010-05-19T04:44:54Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > [Here’s a fun little map](http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2010/04/global-debt-relative-to-gdp/) showing global debt to GDP ratios. I guess we should all start emulating Australia. Maybe you should, this is based on national debt and does not include state debt. I would venture to say that the amount of and relative to GDP state debt would dwarf anything our states have. Oh and due to our regulated banking environment, surplus in good times and now high government spending we seem to have missed out on going into recession. I can wear debt, my leverage ratio is high at the moment due to me buying a house ;why wouldn’t a country use debt to expand infrastructure, it seems quite prudent. It also helps that we have a lot of coal that the Chinese are prepared to pay for, they need to spend all those greenbacks somehow! ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/52 "2010-05-19T05:29:49Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > This, again, completely mischaracterizes the problem. Europe’s problems are the result of having a common currency without real economic unity between the member nations. What happened to the PIIGS is a normal part of the worldwide economy: investment flowed into the countries, driving up wages, and now wages need to come down so they can remain competitive, only there’s no way for them to achieve this other than grinding deflation or default. And Greece is being bailed out so that its banks will pay the money it owes German, French, and Dutch banks. All those banks are interconnected in ways that can make failure in one country spread like a contagion throughout all of Europe. You’re doing exactly what you’ve accused the OP of doing - completely mischaracterizing the issue. Is anybody supposed to take your analysis of the Greek situation seriously if you don’t even mention Greek government’s runaway spending compared to the revenues (instead saying that the crisis is caused by the investment and it’s just a normal part of the worldwide economy) and say that “its banks” are the ones that have to repay the debt, not its Government? > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Of course, everyone knows that Greece is in this mess because their citizens are a bunch of spendthrifts, right? [Wrong.](http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2010/05/german-households-owe-more-than-greeces-do.html) Why do you bring up the household debt? The Greek crisis is caused by the government’s debt. Are you trying to be purposefully misleading or you just didn’t notice the difference? In Greece, the government debt ratio is 125% vs. 77% in Germany and the 2010 budget balance is -12.8% vs. -4.6% in Germany. > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Speaking of Germany, they’re the 2nd largest exporting nation on the planet. China is tops. Do you think they have unrestricted free market capitalism? Umm, you do realize that you’re making the OP’s point for him? China implemented a lot of market-oriented reforms, set up special economic zones, started accepting foreign investments, created some private property rights and as a result it became the fastest growing economy in the World and with its large population it is now a major power. > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > [Here’s a fun little map](http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2010/04/global-debt-relative-to-gdp/) showing global debt to GDP ratios. I guess we should all start emulating Australia. Is your point that Australia is a very poor country and there is nothing that its doing that’s worth emulating? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/53 "2010-05-19T06:21:13Z")
The OP is my cite. Two years ago we had a major financial crisis. The government intervened in the market in a big way. Free marketers predicted that all this government intervention would just make things worse. And the result was: > [@](#): > > Well, here we are a couple of years later. I’m looking around the world, and it seems to me that Capitalism is doing just fine - I can still buy the products I want at good prices, there are no shortages, no real price spikes. Hey, look, the government stepped in and prevented a depression. Compare that to 1929 where the government decided to let the economy heal itself. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/54 "2010-05-19T06:40:08Z")
> [@erez](#): > > Here are the countries with the most economic freedom, as defined by the Heritage Foundation: Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, Switzerland, Canada, United States, Denmark, Chile. Ireland? Switzerland? Denmark? Say, aren’t those a few of the notorious “European social democracies”? Seems to me I was just reading something about them… oh yeah: > [@Sam Stone's OP](#): > > In Europe, the social democracies are failing. Ooooopsie: looks like your much-vaunted “economic freedom” has led to **failure** for nearly one-third of the countries on that Heritage Foundation list. (And some, like the OP, would argue that the US isn’t feeling too chipper right now either, so that makes nearly one-half.) Man, this “economic freedom” is teh suxor, isn’t it? > [@Sam Stone](#): > > And yes, I took a shotgun approach. Well, that’s putting it nicely. Looks like you just mindlessly regurgitated every libertarian Chicken-Littleist talking point that occurred to you, and didn’t bother trying to make any of it plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/55 "2010-05-19T07:06:52Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Well, here we are a couple of years later. I’m looking around the world, and it seems to me that Capitalism is doing just fine - I can still buy the products I want at good prices, there are no shortages, no real price spikes. Now let’s suppose there were in fact crippling shortages and massive price spikes. Would Sam Stone have admitted this was a failure of capitalism. No, you can bet he would have chalked this up as yet another failure of big government probably blaming it on the Federal Reserve. It’s heads, markets win; tails, big government loses.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/56 "2010-05-19T07:39:22Z")
> [@erez](#): > > No, they did fine when the home prices were going up. Since they became semi-government entities in 1968, you will have to make a very interesting stretch to claim that this was what caused their problems 40 years later. I’ll be waiting. But would they be chasing after bad mortgages if they were not competing against the private banks, didn’t have stockholders to satisfy, and didn’t have execs hoping for big bonuses? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/57 "2010-05-19T07:48:32Z")
Without big Central Government, who would build the motorways / interstates? Without big Central Government, who would be able to respond to huge disasters? Without big Central Government, who would maintain the rule of Law? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/58 "2010-05-19T07:51:58Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Without big Central Government, who would build the motorways / interstates? Without big Central Government, who would be able to respond to huge disasters? Without big Central Government, who would maintain the rule of Law? The Free Market! somehow ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/59 "2010-05-19T08:41:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Since I have no interest in starving to death in a famine or suffering any of the other horrible effects of an uncontrolled market, never. Absolutely. Near As Dammit Unregulated Capitalism in the USA under the Republican caused this mess. Tried that model. It has failed. Into the Dustbin of History it should go. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2010, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946/60 "2010-05-19T08:56:03Z")
> [@erez](#): > > Does it make you want to say that a lot of economic freedom is good for country’s economy and no economic freedom is bad? Because that was my point, as proved by these lists of countries. Government’s interference in business, investment, property rights, lots of red tape, rules and regulation, etc. are strongly correlated to bad economic performance. Do you argue with that? Yes. As we have the worst economic crisis since 1929 - caused by the free market fundamentalist ideology that ruled the world for 20 years. And I don’t give a rats ass about ‘economic performance’ if only a minority (led as it turns out - a minority of incompetent, plundering crooks) benefit. Who gives a flying frack so long as people in the richest country ever are having to work 2 jobs to survive while scum get rich engaging in destructive, self-serving activities. Less growth more fairly shared. Works in social democratic Europe where Germany, the nordic countries and France sensibly shielded themselves from the financial madness of unfettered free markets. It is the UK, who as usual trotted along at the ideological heels of the USA, that is in more trouble. The world needs a Financial Crimes Against Humanity branch of the World Court. At the very least there should have been draconian confiscation of wealth and property of all those involved in fomenting the crisis. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-government-is-failing-again/539946.md?page=4)