# Big Love- 2/15/09 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 16, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-2-15-09/486098 "2009-02-16T15:18:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-2-15-09/486098/41 "2009-02-21T03:29:28Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > She also said, at one point, “We can’t afford her!” Barb agreed but said it was necessary to keep making babies. You have to admit that Nicki comes off looking like the saner person in that situation. She feels like the family is large enough, and I’d say she’s right. Sarah would certainly agree. I disagree. She was excited that Ana could have the babies instead of her, meaning she isn’t really worried about the family being too large. She’s worried about her personally having too many babies, because she fears it will distance her from Bill. Money was just a convenient excuse she could feed to Barb. How many times has she voiced her fear of being sent away? That’s her driving motivation; she must stay as close to Bill as possible to avoid being sent away. Having more babies pulls her farther away from Bill. At least, these are all things she’s demonstrated by word and deed, so I’m assuming the writers want us to think that. EDIT: Come to think of it, that’s probably why she wasn’t thrilled with Ana. She viewed her as a threat to replace her, as opposed to rasing her power by making her ahead of two wives instead of one. /EDIT > [@](#): > > The drinking and gambling are definitely not OK with Bill’s religion. There was debate in the family over it, and why would there be if were fine? Because the wives aren’t totally on board with the religion. They have many debates about things that are fine with Bill’s religion. I remember Barb and Margene butting heads over Weber Gaming, but I don’t recall Nicki’s stance on it. As the most devout person in the family – including Bill – what was her reaction to it? That will probably give us the best answer as to whether or not it’s okay within the context of their religion. > [@](#): > > Yes, Bill can set aside his religious beliefs when it suits him, and can be stickler when it suits him. He’s a classic hypocrite. I’m not sure how you can even deny that. He might be a likable hypocrite, but that’s about the best I can say for him. I deny it because I have yet to see a compelling case for his hypocrisy. Switching his position on Rhonda testifying is clearly not a case of hypocrisy or of changing his beliefs. And nobody has yet cited that running Weber Gaming is in violation of his religion’s tenets. It’s clearly against _Barb_’s beliefs, but c’mon, are you really citing Barb as the embodiment of that religion? She is so not on board with Bill’s religion it’s not even funny. She has to be on death’s friggin’ door to become amenable to adding wives. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-2-15-09/486098/42 "2009-02-21T03:34:25Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > He might be a likable hypocrite, but that’s about the best I can say for him. What’s funny is I see him the exact opposite. I see him as true to his beliefs, and highly **un** likable. Probably because I find his beliefs repugnant. ---
**Author:** ![jellyblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e480ec/32.png) [@jellyblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jellyblue)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-2-15-09/486098/43 "2009-02-21T07:03:38Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I disagree. She was excited that Ana could have the babies instead of her, meaning she isn’t really worried about the family being too large. She’s worried about her personally having too many babies, because she fears it will distance her from Bill. Money was just a convenient excuse she could feed to Barb. I don’t think Nicki likes children or being a mother. At all. It’s just what she’s “supposed” to do. But developmentally she’s a fairly young teenager, and wants what she wants. Now. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-2-15-09/486098/44 "2009-02-21T14:55:07Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I disagree. She was excited that Ana could have the babies instead of her, meaning she isn’t really worried about the family being too large. She’s worried about her personally having too many babies, because she fears it will distance her from Bill. Money was just a convenient excuse she could feed to Barb. I don’t think Nicki wants there to be more children, period. But if there have to be more, she doesn’t want to have them. > [@](#): > > I remember Barb and Margene butting heads over Weber Gaming, but I don’t recall Nicki’s stance on it. As the most devout person in the family – including Bill – what was her reaction to it? Nicki’s reaction was to do what Bill wanted because he’s the head of the household. She, as you pointed out, doesn’t want to be sent away. She wants to be seen as the best possible wife. I don’t think her reaction has anything to do with what her religion says is acceptable. Her religion says, first and foremost, that the man is the ultimate authority and she needs to do what he says. We know she doesn’t always adhere to that, either. The Juniper Creek folks are Mormons. They’re considered fundamentalist Mormons, but still Mormons. I don’t think you can deny that Bill is a hypocrite because you’re trying to say that he belongs to another religion that says that gambling is OK. He doesn’t. It’s not. Neither is drinking or adultery, all of which he has done when it suits him. He could choose not to have more wives and children, since he clearly possesses the discernment to pick and choose which parts of his faith he’s going to cling to and which he’s going to ignore. He ignores the prohibitions against gaming, drinking, and fornicating, but holds fast to the ones where he must have innumerable wives and children. Thus, his religion is not an excuse here. You must look to other reasons, ie., egotism. > [@](#): > > I deny it because I have yet to see a compelling case for his hypocrisy. I don’t think it could be made any clearer. > [@](#): > > And nobody has yet cited that running Weber Gaming is in violation of his religion’s tenets. It’s clearly against _Barb_’s beliefs, but c’mon, are you really citing Barb as the embodiment of that religion? She is so not on board with Bill’s religion it’s not even funny. She has to be on death’s friggin’ door to become amenable to adding wives. Barb is a Mormon. So is Bill. Bill’s sect is the fundie branch of Mormonism, but the central tenets about drinking, gambling, and sex are the same. I don’t know where you are getting this idea that they’re not. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-2-15-09/486098/45 "2009-02-21T18:56:30Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > This really seems like an unfair attack just because you don’t like the character. He originally wanted Rhonda to leave town instead of testifying because _his family_ would have been called to impeach her character. He was trying to keep his children off the witness stand, which would have outed them as polygamists. > > When he found out that Roman sanctioned rape, he had to stand up for what was right no matter what. That meant putting Rhonda on the stand despite the fact that his family would then get called to testify. I don’t think it matters why he didn’t want her to testify. You don’t get to tamper with witnesses just because it might be inconvenient to your family. It also felt like he was just going after Roman then b/c he knew that Roman had sanctioned rape against Nicki. Obviously, Bill had to have known about the rape charges before that–what else would Rhonda have been testifying about? **Ruby** –I remember her taking the pill in season one. It’s just one scene, but she takes them right when she tells the rest of the family that she wants to try for another baby (and makes everyone jump through hoops when she’s “ovulating,” having them switch nights, making Bill rush home). If Bill’s Principle says that it’s okay to fleece non-believers but not to gamble, he may not be a hypocrite. But his religion is sick and fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-2-15-09/486098/46 "2009-02-21T20:39:12Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > **Ruby** –I remember her taking the pill in season one. It’s just one scene, but she takes them right when she tells the rest of the family that she wants to try for another baby (and makes everyone jump through hoops when she’s “ovulating,” having them switch nights, making Bill rush home). I forgot about that. She’s quite the manipulator. She embodies the James Brown quote, “A girl’s got to use what she’s got to get what she wants.” > [@](#): > > If Bill’s Principle says that it’s okay to fleece non-believers but not to gamble, he may not be a hypocrite. But his religion is sick and fucked up. He did gamble, in Tahoe with his BIL. Mormons are not supposed to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-2-15-09/486098/47 "2009-02-21T21:02:41Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > He did gamble, in Tahoe with his BIL. Mormons are not supposed to do that. Yeah, you’re right. I just hate how he has an answer for everything. Or his whole outlook on sex. Sex is wrong for everyone else to have, except he gets to have sex with three women and have sex outside of the marriage because…well…the spirit moved him? Ugh! And it’s always super creepy when he gets so dominant over his wives. The scene (last season) when he mentions to Don (or is it Don mentioning to Bill?) that the hardest part about managing wives is making them think they’re doing what they want when it’s really what you want. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-2-15-09/486098/48 "2009-02-21T21:42:59Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Or his whole outlook on sex. Sex is wrong for everyone else to have, except he gets to have sex with three women and have sex outside of the marriage because…well…the spirit moved him? Ugh! The whole “let’s marry Ana” thing seemed like a rationalization after the fact for his lust for her. If Bill feels something, it must be the Holy Spirit moving him, not something lower down. The way Barb jumped on the bandwagon was sad and creepy. I think that’s why Sarah is so disgusted by the whole thing: Barb’s lost her sense of self completely in these marriages. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-2-15-09/486098/49 "2009-02-21T21:46:46Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > The whole “let’s marry Ana” thing seemed like a rationalization after the fact for his lust for her. If Bill feels something, it must be the Holy Spirit moving him, not something lower down. The way Barb jumped on the bandwagon was sad and creepy. I think that’s why Sarah is so disgusted by the whole thing: Barb’s lost her sense of self completely in these marriages. I think the whole “Let’s marry Margene” thing originally was that way as well. Ugh, if I was Sarah, I think I’d be puking every night and not from morning sickness. Also, Barb and Bill were SO judgmental of Ben when he slept with Brynn. (So many B’s.) Wait, it’s wrong for a sixteen year old boy to give in to temptation and sleep with his girlfriend but it’s okay for him to overhear his dad screwing the latest wife who’s only a few years older than him? You just know that when and if Bill finds out about Sarah, he’s going to give her a talk about how wrong it is to be ruled by sex and passions. And that’s going to make me hate him even more. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-2-15-09/486098/50 "2009-02-23T04:26:45Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > He did gamble, in Tahoe with his BIL. Mormons are not supposed to do that. That makes him a hypocrite, but the condemnations in this thread have centered around Weber Gaming. As for the adultery with Ana, he resisted her pleas to have sex for quite a while. He showed significantly more self-control than the average man would have, though in the end he did sleep with her. Anyway, I think he could rightfully lecture Sarah about not being ruled by sex and passion, since he showed _far_ more restraint than she did. (Though of course neither is aware of the other’s actual efforts to resist.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-2-15-09/486098.md?page=2)