# Big Love 3/15 "Outer Darkness" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 16, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641 "2009-03-16T18:01:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/21 "2009-03-17T01:12:11Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > Frank has 3 wives, right? Bill’s mom Lois, the young Jodene, and the woman that hit Frank with a shovel. She’s the one who got sent to South America, and she’s Frankie’s mom. > > According to [this thread](http://boards.cinemax.com/topic/Big-Love-Member/Frank-Blooper-Prom/2000004521&) on the HBO message boards, her name is Nita. > > Great job so far, **friedo** 🙂 Thanks! There’s also Frank’s first wife Roberta, who died early in Season 1, I think. Bill had to bribe his dad to promote Lois to first wife following the funeral. I don’t think we’ve met any of Roberta’s kids, though. I’ll add Nita’s name. I also realized that I forgot to add Jodean’s son, who was held hostage by Adaleen to compel her to change her testimony against Roman. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/22 "2009-03-17T03:30:40Z")
Hollis Green is “descended from one of the four apostles?” How the hell do you trace descent back two thousand and nine years? I love that guy. He’s the best character on the show. I especially liked the scene where he stabbed the pig with the pitchfork. Any time Hollis Green is on the screen, you know there’s going to be something entertaining. A real David Lynch type character. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/23 "2009-03-17T04:04:22Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Hollis Green is “descended from one of the four apostles?” How the hell do you trace descent back two thousand and nine years? I love that guy. He’s the best character on the show. I especially liked the scene where he stabbed the pig with the pitchfork. Any time Hollis Green is on the screen, you know there’s going to be something entertaining. A real David Lynch type character. It’s a weird and obscure teaching from the early days of Mormonism that four of the apostles still roam the Earth and evidently beget children upon occasion. [From here:](http://mmoutreachinc.com/mormons/i_testify.html) > [@](#): > > 4 Now Living Will Never Die > > According to the Book of Mormon, Jesus gave 3 of the Nephite apostles the power over death so that they could “bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall yet stand.” These Nephite Apostles will never die, but will live until Christ comes in his “glory with the powers of heaven.” Only then will they “be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality” (3 Nephi 28). > > According to the Doctrine & Covenants, John the Beloved, one of the original 12 Apostles, also was allowed to live and tarry until Jesus comes in glory from heaven (D&C Sect. 7). If these scriptures are true, John and the three Nephite apostles have been roaming the world winning souls to Christ to this very day. This guarantees that a minimum of four full-fledged Apostles have been on the earth since their ordination,continually fulfilling their extended life-long mission of evangelism. Since these four Apostles never died (according to the Book of Mormon and the D&C), they can never be replaced or restored. So it’s easy enough to trace your family back 2000+ years when you were born in 1940, dad was born in 1900, grandpa was born in 1875 and great-grandpa was born in 30 BCE.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/24 "2009-03-17T06:28:04Z")
I wonder what’s going to happen to that little Asian girl? Is Hollis Green going to make her one of his wives or something? I’m glad Bill finally got up the nerve to give Nikki the boot. That woman is a twisted passive-aggressive wreck, and NOT worth the aggravation! Of course, they’re going to get back together again at some point, because that’s just the way it has to happen - no way would the writers of that show permanently remove Nikki from the family. But if it were me, in Bill’s position, Nikki would be back out on the street, giving blowjobs to 250cc-class Honda motorcycle racers and doing coke in hotel rooms. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/25 "2009-03-17T06:55:21Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I’m glad Bill finally got up the nerve to give Nikki the boot. Irritating though that of all the things she’s done (the $60K in credit card debts she hid and all the times she’s been caught lying or being generally nuts or a total bitch) and even with JJ and Ray, it was the birth control that really sent him over the edge. For anyone who hasn’t seen it, the expression actress playing Chloe Sevigny/Nikki during the two second ‘dip’ in the opening credits of the [SNL Big Love parody](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjX-A6c1gO4)on SNL the other night was better than the entire sketch. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/26 "2009-03-17T07:14:27Z")
Also, Hollis Greene’s middle name is Singer, which is probably not [coincidence](http://www.onlineutah.com/historysinger.shtml). ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/27 "2009-03-17T12:00:00Z")
Incidentally, I’ve wondered why there hasn’t been more ruckus about the references to the Temple Endowment in the credits, where they are all searching for each other through the veils, and to Exaltation where they are gathered on their own planet. I thought the ritual portrayal was quite restrained. Of course, there was Ellen Burstyn’s comment about how it’s only been a few years since they stopped threatening disemboweling & slitting throats. Even I was “They did NOT just go there!?!” ---
**Author:** ![Minnie\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Minnie\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minnie_Luna)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/28 "2009-03-17T14:45:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Nikki would be back out on the street, giving blowjobs to 250cc-class Honda motorcycle racers and doing coke in hotel rooms. Beautiful. I often wonder what motivated Chloe Sevigny to take the role of Nicki. The writers actually had her in mind when developing the character and she was the first person cast for the show. It was a good fit IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/29 "2009-03-17T16:39:42Z")
Quick question about the whole “unsealing” thing. If Nikki and Bill are unsealed, her ties to him (and thus to Barb and Margie and their kids) are broken, and she won’t be with them in eternity, right? And I assume that she’s instead spend eternity with her natal family. But where do her kids spend eternity? Does breaking the covenant between her and Bill break their ties to him, too? Does it break their ties to _her_? How does all this work? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/30 "2009-03-17T19:15:01Z")
> [@Minnie\_Luna](#): > > Beautiful. > > I often wonder what motivated Chloe Sevigny to take the role of Nicki. The writers actually had her in mind when developing the character and she was the first person cast for the show. It was a good fit IMHO. I’m glad at least one person got that reference. Seriously, I can’t see Chloe Sevigny in anything, without thinking of The Brown Bunny. ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/31 "2009-03-17T19:34:01Z")
I had never seen her in anything else. I think she is perfectly cast here though. ---
**Author:** ![LVBoPeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/858c86/32.png) [@LVBoPeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LVBoPeep)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/32 "2009-03-17T19:42:59Z")
\<\<\\>\> Based on the post count, looks like it will be a good (or really,really bad?)one! ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/33 "2009-03-17T19:52:02Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > Quick question about the whole “unsealing” thing. If Nikki and Bill are unsealed, her ties to him (and thus to Barb and Margie and their kids) are broken, and she won’t be with them in eternity, right? And I assume that she’s instead spend eternity with her natal family. But where do her kids spend eternity? Does breaking the covenant between her and Bill break their ties to him, too? Does it break their ties to _her_? How does all this work? IANA Fundamentalist Mormon, but I have read a lot about them. My understanding is that, basically, custody of the kids would be split in the afterlife as well, though of course if her boys grow up and have their own families and live good lives they’ll be patriarchs themselves in the afterlife and perhaps will take in mom. Nicky’s just basically been divorced both in the world and in the hereafter, but she’s not excommunicated or anything. I dislike Bill more than Roman or Alby either one. At least the Grants are open and honest about their polygamy (if nothing else), and Alby and Nicky you can understand much of why they are the way they are (Alby was I think being sincere and accurate when he blamed it on being born to murderous parents). Bill though is such a pious hypocrite: there’s nothing Nikki has done that he can’t match: — Lied to the family about important personal and business dealings: Check — Withheld the taking of sex-life related pharmaceuticals from the family: Check — Made adulterous overtones with another person: Check (Ana and then his “affair” with his first wife Barb) — Used the power and wealth of the compound when it’s convenient: Check (and Bill even used the Greenes for a while) I’m not saying Nikki’s sympathetic- I think she is pretty close to a sociopath as Barb said and a horror- but Bill’s no better morally. It added a lot seeing just how devout an actual Mormon (mainstream LDS) Barb was and is- it explained a lot about her character. It irks me that she doesn’t have the balls to just leave the polygamous family when she knows, on some level, that it’s NOT right, but I suppose the fealty to the husband is ironically a vestige to her upbringing. Of course there’s the head-explode connundrum: EITHER Bill is right, in which case the mainstream LDS is not and therefore excommunication from them is somewhere between meaningless and a sign that you’re doing the right thing and casting you into Outer Darkness is something they have no more power to do than a voodoo priest can prick a doll of you and make you hurt, OR the mainstream LDS is right and therefore Bill, however much you love him, is wrong, which means for your own sake and immortal soul and those of your children it is imperative you leave him, and from what I understand of the mainstream Mormons they’d likely welcome her back with open arms if she returned truly repentant. Think it through woman, decide which is the right, and if it’s Bill then don’t worry about the Outer Darkness and if it ain’t then go to the light Carol Ann. Margene’s the only character I currently like. She’s a ditz but at least a good person. And by the time she’s 30 you know she’ll have left Bill’s sanctimonious ass. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/34 "2009-03-17T19:56:41Z")
PS- I know he’s old (82 per his bio), but Harry Dean Stanton is beginning to look really frail. I wonder when this is the case with an actor if the writers have an “in the event of his death” scenario already drafted out in case he dies or has to drop out of production due to health reasons. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/35 "2009-03-17T19:57:14Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > — Made adulterous overtones with another person: Check (Ana and then his “affair” with his first wife Barb) Don’t forget: it’s also been hinted (confirmed?) that he schtoopt Margie before they were married. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/36 "2009-03-17T20:12:02Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Don’t forget: it’s also been hinted (confirmed?) that he schtoopt Margie before they were married. I couldn’t remember whether he played hide the salami with Ana. Did he or did they just come close? ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/37 "2009-03-17T20:20:55Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I couldn’t remember whether he played hide the salami with Ana. Did he or did they just come close? You mean Margie? I can’t remember exactly either. Anybody know for sure? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/38 "2009-03-17T20:23:02Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > You mean Margie? I can’t remember exactly either. Anybody know for sure? No, Ana- the brief 4th wife. Did they get physical or not? ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/39 "2009-03-17T20:24:07Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I couldn’t remember whether he played hide the salami with Ana. Did he or did they just come close? They did it for sure last season and if I remember right, they came close this season. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641/40 "2009-03-17T20:31:15Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > No, Ana- the brief 4th wife. Did they get physical or not? Yeah, after she said she didn’t want him (before they were married), he fucked her in her apartment. Then, she had a change of heart and decided she wanted to date them or some such. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-love-3-15-outer-darkness/489641.md?page=3)