# Big Oil vs. NRA...Dun Dun Dunn-n-n-n **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332 "2005-08-02T17:40:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/41 "2005-08-03T12:52:22Z")
Has someone checked the White House to see if Dubya’s head exploded because of this? ---
**Author:** ![Madd\_Maxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Madd\_Maxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madd_Maxx)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/42 "2005-08-03T13:07:58Z")
**dropzone** don’t assume that all NRA members are Republican. Madd Maxx, registered Democrat and NRA member since 1995. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/43 "2005-08-03T13:10:53Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I don’t have a clear sense yet of why this bugs me, but somehow it feels as though the NRA is trying to have it both ways at once. They want to argue that there’s nothing wrong with bringing these guns onto someone else’s private property because they’re intended for purely recreational, personal, harmless purposes. And at the same time they want to argue that it’s ethically wrong and anti-liberty to ban guns from the private property because they’re so crucially constitutionally important for state security purposes. Huh? What makes you think these statements conflict with one another? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/44 "2005-08-03T13:12:09Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Lemme get this straight: You good, conservative Republicans are saying that NOT ONLY a company should NOT have the right to say what they want on their property BUT ALSO, though Weyerhauser is the company that did the firings, Conoco should be driven out of business because they support the right of companies to make their own rules? Is that what you’re saying? I ask because it sure doesn’t sound like something good, conservative Republicans would say. Conoco should be driven out of business if enough of its customers are sufficiently offended by its political position to boycott them. This is perfectly consistent with free-market conservatism. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/45 "2005-08-03T13:20:58Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > You’re a good serf, then. Just how much leeway are you willing to allow companies? Is it reasonable for them to demand that you drive a Ford and no other vehicle onto their lot? Can they limit your eating eggs because they think they’ll give you bad gas? Can they demand that you part your hair on the left? Rules should meet a reasonable standard of being related to the business, not some arbitrary bullshit. If what I do on my own time doesn’t affect my performance, then it’s none of my boss’ damned business if I want to smoke a joint or drink a fifth. Now you’re simply being ridiculous. No one forces you to take a job. If you don’t like the bullshit rules that come with it, then don’t work there. Find a job somewhere else. If I were presented with an opportunity to work with a company that banned me from drinking, eating eggs, drive a Ford, or parting my hair on the left, then I have to consider whether or not the pay and benefits of this job outweigh the bullshit rules. Unless it was a great job with great pay and benefits, it likely wouldn’t. Don’t misunderstand my position – I think that Weyerhaeser is completely wrong to have a policy banning guns on their property. I don’t think it’s morally justifiable. However, I do concede that they have the right to have this policy and the state should not be enacting laws that interfere with this right. It’s their property; they can do what they want. Any business can make rules for its property. Just because I recognize property rights does not mean that I think that rules of this sort are good. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/46 "2005-08-03T13:22:20Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > Conoco should be driven out of business if enough of its customers are sufficiently offended by its political position to boycott them. This is perfectly consistent with free-market conservatism. Except in this case it’s conservatives organizing a boycott of a company because it’s standing up for property rights. How consistent is that? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/47 "2005-08-03T13:23:12Z")
Look, I can sympathize with the companies involved to an extent. Given the nature of lawsuits, legal liability, and insurance, it seems natural to want to ban guns from your property, even if they are secured in someone else’s trunk. (Although it seems natural, it is in fact counterintuitive, as legal gun owners are quite safe people.) The state attempted to help out here, saying they are not legally liable for those weapons so long as they are stored properly. As a matter of law in Oklahoma, private property rights ends to the car tires for this sort of thing. Companies should have been reassured by this law and just gone about their business, instead of suing to block its implementation. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/48 "2005-08-03T13:35:31Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > Except in this case it’s conservatives organizing a boycott of a company because it’s standing up for property rights. How consistent is that? Perfectly. They don’t have any “right” to your patronage. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/49 "2005-08-03T13:41:01Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > Perfectly. They don’t have any “right” to your patronage. True, but I’m getting at the point for the boycott. Conservatives are generally strong supporters of property rights. So now conservatives are going to stand up for a company that is fighting for its property rights? The right of someone to control his own property (or of a company to control its property) isn’t dependent on whether or not you agree with what he/she/it does on that property, much like the freedom of speech isn’t dependent on whether or not you agree with the speaker. It’s pretty inconsistent for conservatives to howl about how the _Kelo_ decision infringes on property rights and now to support a state law that infringes on those same rights. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/50 "2005-08-03T14:10:15Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > It’s pretty inconsistent for conservatives to howl about how the _Kelo_ decision infringes on property rights and now to support a state law that infringes on those same rights. Yes, but what you seem to be missing is that property rights cut both ways here. And the state law seems to be drawing a line clarifying where the rights of the parking lot owner end, and the rights of the car owner begin. A locked trunk seems reasonable here. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/51 "2005-08-03T14:17:39Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > Sure, it’s bullshit, but why should bullshit be illegal? Especially if it’s bullshit taking place on private property. > > It’s pretty irrelevant that the guns were stored in accordance with state laws. It’s not public property so if the company had a rule that no guns were allowed on the property, then that rule should be respected. There are a lot of things that are legal in the state I own property in, but I don’t want all of those things taking place on that property. I have the right to define what type of activity takes place there. I can even choose to make bullshit rules if I want. No state law should interefere with that. I assume you feel the same way about rules prohibiting racial discrimination. With your private company, on your private property, you should be able to only serve whites, and laws forbidding that are bullshit, right? ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/52 "2005-08-03T14:20:37Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Yes, but what you seem to be missing is that property rights cut both ways here. And the state law seems to be drawing a line clarifying where the rights of the parking lot owner end, and the rights of the car owner begin. No, in this case property rights are pretty clear. A company owns a certain amount of land. It tells those who come on this land that they cannot have a firearm. When a person enters that land, he has an obligation to obey the owners of that property. The fact that the gun is locked in a car is irrelevant. The car may be the property of a person, but that person is a guest on the property of another. Therefore that person has an obligation to obey the rules of the property owner. Let’s take another situation – my mother-in-law says that when I go to her place she doesn’t want drugs or porn brought in. I, however, bring a locked bag that have both. I am obviously in violation of her property rights, even though the bag belongs to me. It’s her property, after all, and I should respect those rules. > [@](#): > > A locked trunk seems reasonable here. True, the company should allow people to bring guns in a locked trunk. However, it is under no obligation to do so. It has the right to be stupid, and it exercised that right. No state law should infringe on that right. Conoco is right to fight a law that infringes on their right to set rules for their own property. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/53 "2005-08-03T14:21:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I assume you feel the same way about rules prohibiting racial discrimination. With your private company, on your private property, you should be able to only serve whites, and laws forbidding that are bullshit, right? I’m a libertarian, so of course I do. I think such practices are abhorrent, but should not be against the law. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/54 "2005-08-03T14:27:33Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > I’m a libertarian, so of course I do. I think such practices are abhorrent, but should not be against the law. As long as you’re consistent… I don’t agree with the thinking behind this state law myself. The company should be free to create whatever conditions it likes for parking on its property. Obviously I’m sympathetic to the issue of wanting to have guns in the car, but if you don’t like your company’s, get another job. However, it seems to me that if you acknowledge the power of the state to tell a private company, “You must not discriminate on the basis of race,” then you acknowledge the power of the state to make this law, too. You may not agree that the goal of racial equality is of the same magnitude as having an armed citizenry, but that’s a judgement of what values society is prepared to push over private property rights. If there is a power to enforce one, then there’s a power to enforce others. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/55 "2005-08-03T16:14:10Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > Now you’re simply being ridiculous. No one forces you to take a job. If you don’t like the bullshit rules that come with it, then don’t work there. Find a job somewhere else. Hunger is a great motivator. Seeing his children starve will make a man give up freedom. You seem to be confused about the available of jobs in rural areas like in the OP. Have you ever heard of company stores? Was it bullshit rules that most companies had that would fire (or even kill) anyone who spoke of Unionization in the early 20th Century? Have you heard of The Ludlow Massacre? Capitalists given free-reign will not restrain themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/56 "2005-08-03T16:20:14Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > Hunger is a great motivator. Seeing his children starve will make a man give up freedom. You seem to be confused about the available of jobs in rural areas like in the OP. Don’t assume anything. The rural county I’m originally from generally has 10-15% unemployment. Guess what? I moved to an area where there are jobs. > [@](#): > > Have you ever heard of company stores? Was it bullshit rules that most companies had that would fire (or even kill) anyone who spoke of Unionization in the early 20th Century? Have you heard of The Ludlow Massacre? > > Capitalists given free-reign will not restrain themselves. So now you’re comparing a company firing a worker for having a gun in his car to the Ludlow massacre? Seems a bit of a stretch. All I’m saying is that a company has the right to set the rules for the land it owns and to negotiate a contract with workers that may have bullshit rules. If the worker doesn’t like it, then that worker can stay off company property or forgo the job. If that worker is valuable enough to the company, then that company will accommodate the worker. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/57 "2005-08-03T18:19:58Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > How 'bout drugs? You okay with your company searching your car for dope? And then firing if they find a roach in the ashtray? Whether or not you’re stoned at the the office? Or pornography or contraception? With drugs or drug paraphnellia, you have something illegal. With the case of guns, you have something that is legal. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/58 "2005-08-03T18:23:42Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > O paraphnellia, paraphernalia :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/59 "2005-08-03T18:44:07Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > So now you’re comparing a company firing a worker for having a gun in his car to the Ludlow massacre? Seems a bit of a stretch. Freezing and boiling water are measured with the same thermometer. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332/60 "2005-08-03T20:24:55Z")
> [@](#): > > **Originally Posted by Bricker** > I assume you feel the same way about rules prohibiting racial discrimination. With your private company, on your private property, you should be able to only serve whites, and laws forbidding that are bullshit, right? This is a false analogy. Unless your name is Edward Riflehands. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-oil-vs-nra-dun-dun-dunn-n-n-n/315332.md?page=4)