# Big rich companies doing wrong by their employees, customers or other stakeholders during COVID-19 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 25, 2020, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232 "2020-03-25T04:16:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2020, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/41 "2020-04-05T20:36:34Z")
Double Post ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2020, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/42 "2020-04-05T20:49:28Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > Pretty simplistic take on the whole situation with the airlines. Each airline has it’s own contract of carriage that dictates how it treats cancellations, refunds, vouchers, etc. Many, many people buy the cheapest ticket which almost always means it’s non-refundable and non-changeable. Once the shit hit the fan, many airlines, at least the large US airlines, immediately started allowing people to cancel and rebook or get vouchers for even the most restricted tickets, as well as waiving change fees. That seems pretty reasonable to me. If you’re not happy getting a voucher or the ability to change your previously non-refundable, non-changeable ticket, then I think the airline should be able to charge a cancellation fee. Not sure why you think the airlines should be on the hook for millions of these tickets. So if the policy when you buy the ticket is that you get a refund upon cancellation of a flight, you really think that its fair that they change their policy later on retroactively? > [@](#): > > Now as more travel bans/restrictions have gone into effect, the airlines are having to cancel flights and reducing/changing schedules. In many cases if THE AIRLINE cancels your flight or makes a change of more than X hours (depends on airline) you ARE due a refund. Each will have its own process for this. I just had to do this with AA and even though the airline cancelled my flight I still had to “cancel” it on my end and then request the refund via their website. There was a period of over a week where my flight hadn’t yet been cancelled by AA and if I’d initiated the cancellation on my end first, I’m sure it would have defaulted to getting issued a voucher rather than refund, so it pays to wait as long as possible to cancel. Apparently American Airlines is not screwing their passengers. United is. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/43 "2020-04-05T20:54:11Z")
> [@eenerms](#): > > American Airlines didn’t do this to us. We could change without penalty. United is letting me change without penalty as well but for when? When will travel be OK again? ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2020, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/44 "2020-04-06T21:30:52Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So if the policy when you buy the ticket is that you get a refund upon cancellation of a flight, you really think that its fair that they change their policy later on retroactively? > Apparently American Airlines is not screwing their passengers. > > United is. Without knowing all the details, if you were really supposed to get a refund, then it sounds like the best course of action is to keep pushing back on United. > **[Airlines owe you a refund when they cancel a flight. So why is United balking...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2020/03/26/united-airlines-blasted-refund-policy-during-coronavirus-crisis/2898509001/)** > > Airlines are supposed to refund flyers' money if they cancel a flight. United has introduced more restrictive policies during the coronavirus crisis. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2020, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/45 "2020-04-06T22:26:12Z")
Korean Air is not penalizing passengers either. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/46 "2020-04-07T14:50:32Z")
> **[U.S. warns airlines to quickly refund tickets after canceled flights](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-airlines/u-s-warns-airlines-to-quickly-refund-tickets-after-canceled-flights-idUSKBN21L2NK)** > > The U.S. Transportation Department on Friday issued a notice to airlines reminding them they are obligated to refund tickets when they cancel a flight or make a significant flight schedule change that passengers opt not to accept, but will not take... Airlines are supposed to issue refunds. Apparently the United policy wasn’t a United policy it was a Department of Transportation regulation. Still have not received refunds on any of my tickets with United. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/47 "2020-04-09T20:39:33Z")
Concert fans are getting the finger from SURPRISE SURPRISE: ticket brokers. Ticketmaster and StubHub: DO THE RIGHT THING. People need their money right now: [https://www.mcall.com/news/nation-world/ct-ent-canceled-concerts-canceled-refunds-20200409-vuihm7xqrvfh3gxqbrnjugj5pu-story.html](https://www.mcall.com/news/nation-world/ct-ent-canceled-concerts-canceled-refunds-20200409-vuihm7xqrvfh3gxqbrnjugj5pu-story.html) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![MissTake](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misstake/32/3189_2.png) [@MissTake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MissTake)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2020, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/48 "2020-04-10T14:13:09Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > Concert fans are getting the finger from SURPRISE SURPRISE: ticket brokers. > > Ticketmaster and StubHub: DO THE RIGHT THING. People need their money right now: > > [https://www.mcall.com/news/nation-world/ct-ent-canceled-concerts-canceled-refunds-20200409-vuihm7xqrvfh3gxqbrnjugj5pu-story.html](https://www.mcall.com/news/nation-world/ct-ent-canceled-concerts-canceled-refunds-20200409-vuihm7xqrvfh3gxqbrnjugj5pu-story.html) Does not shock me at all. Many years ago I worked at TicketBastard. Had a phone call with a woman clearing up her dad’s estate after he passed. She had discovered he had spent a significant chunk of money to treat his family to an expensive concert, asked for a refund. Manager got on the call, asked to speak with the purchaser. He’s dead. Go without him (like going with him was an option). No, the musician was his thing, not ours, we’re asking for a refund to help paying the expenses. After at least 20 minutes of going back and forth, a refund was denied. It was a sold out show, the tickets would’ve been gone in a heartbeat. But, no. Then I got dinged because the call took too long. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2020, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/49 "2020-04-10T16:47:15Z")
I get the anger at TicketMaster, as they are the primary reseller. But StubHub is just an intermediary. If you buy tickets from someone other than the event organizer, you should know that you won’t get the benefit of the organizer’s policy. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2020, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/50 "2020-04-10T18:18:10Z")
> [@FairyChatMom](#): > > And [Hobby Lobby](https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/hobby-lobby-is-closing-all-stores-and-furloughing-nearly-all-retail-employees-without-pay-after-it-defied-stay-at-home-orders-by-quietly-reopening-locations-around-the-nation/ar-BB128K4j?ocid=hplocalnews) is in the news again. Closing all stores and conducting mass furloughing. Very Christian of them, no? > > And I thought I hated their policies before now. Nothing says “Christian billionaire” like sticking it to the poor of the world. ---
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/51 "2020-04-10T18:37:43Z")
Since this is the Pit: fuck you. There is no reasonable way for any major airline to refund tickets right now. Every single one of them is doing everything it can to stay afloat…in these days of not being allowed to operate their business. It is entitled dicks like you, that are trying to destroy industries. Verstuurd vanaf mijn moto g(6) met Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/52 "2020-04-10T19:11:56Z")
Pretty sure that Delta CEO is giving up his salary as well as Marriott’s CEO. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2020, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/53 "2020-04-10T23:38:01Z")
Yeah, “nonrefundable, nonchangeable” has only gotten ever more nonrefundable and nonchangeable as time has gone by. And it’s curious but just as I am often encouraged to have a cash reserve to take me through 3 to 6 months w/o being paid – and I usually do but the vast majority of the workforce doesn’t in their dreams have a single pay period’s extra reserve – how come these great businesses don’t themselves have that kind of reserve. Lesson to learn. Oh, and about labor and payroll matters: > [@RivkahChaya](#): > > It’s never clear from the article, but are these companies who are paying workers 100% of their pay, but staying closed anyway? So people are doing no work, but being compensated as though they are? > > If that is the case, then I can sympathize with the companies taking the stimulus check. It is meant to help people with no income, and these people have their full income. Incorrect. > [@russian\_heel](#): > > That’s not their call. It’s the governments. The idea behind the stimulus check is the recipients, working or not, will spend the money and keep the economy moving. When the company takes away the equivalent of that pay, it removes the incentive to spend it. Right. Let’s go over it: “Individual stimulus payment”: for_individual taxpayers_ (mostly in the under-$75,000 AGI brackets) _whether employed or not or having any current tax liability or not_. Explicitly not discountable against anything else the government has on you (except child support) and in your next tax return you will be credited for the amount you received so you don’t have be taxed on it (unless, like, your income jumps from under 75K to over 99K in which case what’s the problem). This is a one-time deal. _For a worker who LOSES their income_ - they are bona fide laid off/furloughed – there is the Pandemic Supplemental Unemployment Benefit, which is up to $600 per week above what they’d get from regular unemployment. This has a time limit, to July 31. _For the employer who keeps people on the payroll_, there is an Employee Retention Tax Credit on their payroll tax; \*\* and\*\* for midsize/small businesses a Paycheck Protection Program loan to cover up to a certain limit of that payroll, that will be condoned if they comply with the terms. This last program has had such high demand they’re already trying to round up another quarter trillion by month’s end. For employers there is also a dollar-for-dollar credit (up to a varying ceiling per employee circumstance) for the now mandatory 10 day paid sick/family care leave under FFCRA. These employer credits are available for the rest of the year. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2020, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/54 "2020-04-11T04:21:25Z")
> [@polar\_bear](#): > > Since this is the Pit: fuck you. > > There is no reasonable way for any major airline to refund tickets right now. Every single one of them is doing everything it can to stay afloat…in these days of not being allowed to operate their business. > > It is entitled dicks like you, that are trying to destroy industries. > > Verstuurd vanaf mijn moto g(6) met Tapatalk So why did American refund tickets? Tell you what, you send me $7,000 and you can have my united airline credits. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/55 "2020-04-11T15:28:08Z")
In the absence of a thread about corporations being nice, I’ll post two examples here: We had a cruise booked on Viking. Their normal cancellation policy within a month of the sailing date is that you lose 75% of what you’d paid. First, they waived that policy and offered 100% refunds. Then, when they cancelled the tour, they upped that to: 100% in cash, or 125% in a credit on a future cruise. My employer (I’m reluctant to name them but you would recognize their name) was planning a modest realignment, with a few jobs eliminated – including mine – in the next few months. Our CEO let it be known, quietly, that all restructuring would be on hold for 6 months because this is a terrible time to give people bad news. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2020, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/56 "2020-04-12T15:30:57Z")
So the Department of Transportation sent out a reminder that airlines have to issue refunds if they cancel flights. Airlines like United responded by sending an army of lobbyists to the DOT. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/57 "2020-04-12T16:51:31Z")
> [@polar\_bear](#): > > Since this is the Pit: fuck you. > > There is no reasonable way for any major airline to refund tickets right now. Every single one of them is doing everything it can to stay afloat…in these days of not being allowed to operate their business. > > It is entitled dicks like you, that are trying to destroy industries. This is idiotic bullshit. If I paid for something and I can’t receive it because the person I paid is unable to give it to me (whether that is a good or service) then if they don’t return my money that is theft. If it’s a hardship for them to not return my money for something they can no longer provide, boo-fucking-hoo. No reasonable person with two honest brain cells to rub together can justify involuntary charity toward a corporation. If a person can’t take their flight and asks for a refund because of their personal circumstances, whatever those circumstances might be, I can see refusing to refund because there was a clause in the purchase saying no refunds. That’s not what’s happening; the airline is the one who is having to cancel flights, so they have no outs. Eat a bag of dicks you dipshit. The fastest way to kill the airline industry is if they are allowed to say they can cancel your flight and keep your money, which is scam artist behavior. Nobody would waste their fucking money on an airline that pulled that shit and got away with it. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/58 "2020-04-13T02:38:15Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > …but, are billionaires billionaires because they have a billion dollars immediately to hand, or are they billionaires because they have assets that are valued at a billion dollars? I have long had my doubts about either. I have this unsubstantiated feeling that most really rich guys are illusions of massive leverage, whose assets and wealth are heavily dependent on liquid capital. The old expression goes “_Owe a thousand and the bank owns you; owe ten million and you own the bank_”. The economy in general, AFAICT is a delightful pastry that is mostly air. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/59 "2020-04-13T14:02:52Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > This is idiotic bullshit. > > If I paid for something and I can’t receive it because the person I paid is unable to give it to me (whether that is a good or service) then if they don’t return my money that is theft. > > If it’s a hardship for them to not return my money for something they can no longer provide, boo-fucking-hoo. No reasonable person with two honest brain cells to rub together can justify involuntary charity toward a corporation. > > If a person can’t take their flight and asks for a refund because of their personal circumstances, whatever those circumstances might be, I can see refusing to refund because there was a clause in the purchase saying no refunds. That’s not what’s happening; the airline is the one who is having to cancel flights, so they have no outs. > > Eat a bag of dicks you dipshit. The fastest way to kill the airline industry is if they are allowed to say they can cancel your flight and keep your money, which is scam artist behavior. Nobody would waste their fucking money on an airline that pulled that shit and got away with it. To be fair the airlines only got 50 billion dollars in the stimulus. This is only 3 months work of revenue. After you take out variable costs like payroll (they don’t pay flight crew much unless they actually fly; ground crew is currently running skeleton crews), fuel, food, gate fees, etc that let’s them stretch out that 50 billion part the end of the year. Airlines have significant fixed costs like payments on the airplanes but the majority of their expenses are variable. So they get enough to keep afloat AND they get to keep my money? I think youre right. He should eat a bag of dicks. > **[Travel bailouts: Airlines, hotels and travel agents all got them. Shouldn't...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/advice/2020/04/10/coronavirus-stimulus-money-do-travelers-deserve-bailout/2972102001/)** > > The travel industry can't just pick up where it left off when the outbreak started. Customers deserve to be treated with respect, now more than ever. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232/60 "2020-04-15T02:37:42Z")
Tim Martin, CEO of Wetherspoons - one of the biggest pub chains in the UK - has refused to pay any of his 40,000 staff, and stripped them of bonuses they’d already been paid (not sure how they could legally do the latter, but apparently they have). Staff will probably get furlough pay at the end of April, but that leaves them without pay for a month. It’s a hugely profitable company and most other similar companies are paying their staff - Martin’s claims that they can’t afford it are total crap. > **[JD Wetherspoon denies ‘abandoning’ staff in coronavirus crisis](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/mar/24/wetherspoons-denies-abandoning-staff-in-coronavirus-crisis)** > > Tim Martin says pub chain cannot afford to pay wages until government steps in Martin is well known as a total bastard in other ways, so it’s not entirely suprising. Richard Branson is also coming under a lot of criticism for expecting his employees to take 8 weeks’ unpaid leave at the same time as asking for a government bail-out. His company is in enormous trouble, but he is a literal billionaire. I know that doesn’t mean he has billions in liquid assets, but he will have easily enough to personally pay his employees at the sick pay rate. He’s also been extremely unpopular for a while after suing the NHS for not letting him sell them overpriced services. > [@jsc1953](#): > > In the absence of a thread about corporations being nice, I’ll post two examples here: > > We had a cruise booked on Viking. Their normal cancellation policy within a month of the sailing date is that you lose 75% of what you’d paid. First, they waived that policy and offered 100% refunds. Then, when they cancelled the tour, they upped that to: 100% in cash, or 125% in a credit on a future cruise. > > My employer (I’m reluctant to name them but you would recognize their name) was planning a modest realignment, with a few jobs eliminated – including mine – in the next few months. Our CEO let it be known, quietly, that all restructuring would be on hold for 6 months because this is a terrible time to give people bad news. That sounds not just nice, but clever. I bet some customers will go for the 125% credit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-rich-companies-doing-wrong-by-their-employees-customers-or-other-stakeholders-during-covid-19/850232.md?page=4)