# Big Science Fiction OR Fantasy Worlds in Literature **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 13, 2015, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566 "2015-02-13T13:44:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/41 "2015-02-17T03:35:00Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > . . . Niven’s \*Rainbow Mars . . . Whoo! I had not known about this book! I just glommed it on Amazon. Thank you! (A “Svetz” book! Whee! I adore the earlier Svetz stories!) ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/42 "2015-02-17T11:53:47Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Whoo! I had not known about this book! I just glommed it on Amazon. Thank you! (A “Svetz” book! Whee! I adore the earlier Svetz stories!) If you get the right edition of “Rainbow Mars” it will have all the Svetz stories included. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/43 "2015-02-17T11:57:02Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > That’s BREATHTAKING! Fantastic, and just endless! It makes me think a little of Breughel’s “Tower of Babel,” and it also has some Escher-like infinities to it. The swirling of Tir-na Nog’th in the sky is wonderful. The more I look at this picture, the more I see! I love the archway in the lower center, and, just below it and to the right, the subtle climbing arcade/façade. And now I see the people on the balconies at the very bottom! Please pass along my absolute dumbstruck and awestruck admiration for this piece! (Are prints available?) Delicious! I want to go and visit and never leave! Glad you liked it - my wife ( **Dendarii Dame** ) has this print on the wall in her office to inspire her own writing (I’ve got some of Pyracantha’s other prints in my own office, by the way). ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/44 "2015-02-17T12:31:49Z")
Edgar Rice Burrough’s **Barsoom** series has a wonderfully detailed setting, and basically one plot. But still great fun! > **[Amazon.com: Mars Trilogy (A Princess of Mars / The Gods of Mars / The Warlord of...](https://www.amazon.com/Mars-Trilogy-Princess-Gods-Warlord/dp/1442423870)** > > Amazon.com: Mars Trilogy (A Princess of Mars / The Gods of Mars / The Warlord of Mars): 9781442423879: Edgar Rice Burroughs: Books Pop for a used copy–you’ll never regret it. Pure, trashy fun. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/45 "2015-02-17T14:01:57Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Okay, I’ll bite. How is a Dyson Sphere too big? So what if it takes a million years to populate fully? Or did you mean too massive? I can imagine a Dyson Sphere being problematic in the case of a close stellar encounter. as I’ve said, “Too big” in terms of what you can do with it in a literary sense. I still haven’t read a good Dyson Sphere story about someone actually using a Dyson Sphere as a necessary setting for their story. The closest anyone has come is Larry Niven with his “Ringworld” series. He’s gotten a lot of mileage out of Ringworld, which is so big that you can effectively lose the Earth, Moon, and Mars in its area. (Ringworld actually has replicas of the Earth, Moon, and Mars built into it). And a Dyson Sphere is like Ringworld squared in terms of surface area. If you think you can write a good Dyson Sphere story, then by all means do so. We could use a good one. But every book or story I’ve read about the concept has essentially dodged it by making the story about something else altogether. Dyson Spheres aren’t just civilization-killers, they’re story-killers, evidently. Incidentally, people filling a Dyson sphere to capacity would make an interesting story – the idea of scarcity on something so large and bountiful would make for interesting dissonance. So would the scale. Even if the surface was 1/4 land and 3/4 water, like the earth, the surface area is equal to almost a _billion_ earth surface areas (considering only the land). That’s a truly enormous area to fill, and being surrounded by so much wilderness for most of the time needed to fill it will profoundly change people and whatever sort of culture grows up there. Go from one place to another not relatively close on the scale of the sphere will be equivalent to interplanetary travel. The different parts of a Dyson Sphere will be essentially disconnected, except by communication. And if the Dyson Sphere is spread thin the inhabitants won’t be able to mine for minerals and the like. as on Ringworld, you’re reduced to pretty basic means of sustenance. There’s potentially a story in there, but aside from Shaw (who, as I said, basically just said it was a civilization-killer), nobody’s written it. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/46 "2015-02-17T14:31:25Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Edgar Rice Burrough’s **Barsoom** series has a wonderfully detailed setting, and basically one plot. > But still great fun! > [Amazon.com](http://smile.amazon.com/Mars-Trilogy-Princess-Gods-Warlord/dp/1442423870/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=1-3&qid=1424176247) > > Pop for a used copy–you’ll never regret it. > Pure, trashy fun. If you have a Kindle or other e-reader, most of Burrough’s work is public domain now, and available places like the Gutenberg Project (or even just on Amazon’s free list) for free. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/47 "2015-02-17T14:43:27Z")
> [@AncientHumanoid](#): > > [Pyracantha Studios](http://www.pyracantha.com/prints/) Yes, and “Amber” is available for purchase there among other pieces. If you’ve read Diana Wynne Jones’ “Tough Guide to Fantasyland” it’s dedicated to Pyracantha. ---
**Author:** ![JcWoman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jcwoman/32/2889_2.png) [@JcWoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JcWoman)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/48 "2015-02-17T15:37:26Z")
I have a couple, not as physically huge as those already mentioned, but richly detailed and well-written: Jacqueline Carey’s Kushiel series. The first six books are exquisite, there are three more after them that are also good but showed signs of wearing out or trying too hard to keep the world going. Fantasy fiction that takes place in an alternate Europe/Russia/China/UK, with references to the new world but they never actually make it there. Every country the characters visit is richly detailed and colorful in their own unique ways. The characters are also three dimensional, grow and change and are marvelous. O.S. Card did a wonderful alternative world set in the U.S. east coast that was full of magic (they called it “having a knack”). It’s the Calvin Maker series. It starts out like okay this is just a nice story, but if you keep with it, the world unfolds into a rich tapestry of amazing-ness. Also, Sheri Tepper’s stroke of brilliance called the True Game series. It’s mind-blowing that she manages to pack a super-colorful, detailed world into very short, page-turning books. This is another one where the first book is like “huh, cute story” and by the time you get to the end you see it all wound together into a moral tale. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/49 "2015-02-17T15:44:43Z")
> [@JcWoman](#): > > O.S. Card did a wonderful alternative world set in the U.S. east coast that was full of magic (they called it “having a knack”). It’s the Calvin Maker series. It starts out like okay this is just a nice story, but if you keep with it, the world unfolds into a rich tapestry of amazing-ness. Alvin, not Calvin (Calvin is Alvin’s little brother) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/50 "2015-02-17T15:55:44Z")
What about Philip José Farmer’s _Riverworld_ series-a planet large enough to comfortably support all that had ever lived on Earth without overcrowding. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/51 "2015-02-17T15:56:33Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > as I’ve said, “Too big” in terms of what you can do with it in a literary sense. Ah, I was reading you literally rather than literally! 🙂 > [@](#): > > That’s a truly enormous area to fill, and being surrounded by so much wilderness for most of the time needed to fill it will profoundly change people and whatever sort of culture grows up there. Already been done with Europe and America. And a Dyson Sphere could fill very quickly, within a few thousand years. > [@](#): > > Go from one place to another not relatively close on the scale of the sphere will be equivalent to interplanetary travel. Not really. History is full of multi-year trips. What percentage of people even now travel outside their home country? > [@](#): > > The different parts of a Dyson Sphere will be essentially disconnected, except by communication. Much like Earth until very recently. Alternatively, you could design your landmasses in such a way that made use of that difficulty of travel to separate them > [@](#): > > And if the Dyson Sphere is spread thin the inhabitants won’t be able to mine for minerals and the like. as on Ringworld, you’re reduced to pretty basic means of sustenance. Now there’s a story. Personally, I’d invite the guys from Terry Pratchett’s Strata in to ensure a good supply of minerals to start with and recycling machines to cleanse the seas. After that, recycling will take over. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/52 "2015-02-17T16:21:59Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Ah, I was reading you literally rather than literally! 🙂 > > Already been done with Europe and America. And a Dyson Sphere could fill very quickly, within a few thousand years. > > Not really. History is full of multi-year trips. What percentage of people even now travel outside their home country? > > Much like Earth until very recently. Alternatively, you could design your landmasses in such a way that made use of that difficulty of travel to separate them > > Now there’s a story. Personally, I’d invite the guys from Terry Pratchett’s Strata in to ensure a good supply of minerals to start with and recycling machines to cleanse the seas. After that, recycling will take over. I really do think you don’t have a proper appreciation for the scale of a Dyson sphere. The way you blithely toss off “within a few thousand years” for filling it (and for whicxh I’d like to see more justification, even considering the exponential factors of growth). And it’s not merely “multi-year trips”. Ibn Battuta took a multi-year trip over les than the width of the earth. This is something many orders of magnitude larger than the earth. If you lacked high techn ology to get from one place to another, there’s no comparison – you’d die of old age long before you made even a fraction of the journey across the sphere. You know that litany of Scott Adams about how big Space is in _Hitchhiker’s Guide_? It applies to a Dyson sphere just as well. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/53 "2015-02-17T16:39:58Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I really do think you don’t have a proper appreciation for the scale of a Dyson sphere. The way you blithely toss off “within a few thousand years” for filling it (and for whicxh I’d like to see more justification, even considering the exponential factors of growth). And it’s not merely “multi-year trips”. Ibn Battuta took a multi-year trip over les than the width of the earth. This is something many orders of magnitude larger than the earth. If you lacked high techn ology to get from one place to another, there’s no comparison – you’d die of old age long before you made even a fraction of the journey across the sphere. > You know that litany of Scott Adams about how big Space is in _Hitchhiker’s Guide_? It applies to a Dyson sphere just as well. Awesome. you could have a “generation caravan” Be a bit of as pain to find the merchandise went off by the time you got there, or the ordering civilisation up and went extinct. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/54 "2015-02-17T16:56:34Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I really do think you don’t have a proper appreciation for the scale of a Dyson sphere. The way you blithely toss off “within a few thousand years” for filling it (and for whicxh I’d like to see more justification, even considering the exponential factors of growth). And it’s not merely “multi-year trips”. Ibn Battuta took a multi-year trip over les than the width of the earth. This is something many orders of magnitude larger than the earth. If you lacked high techn ology to get from one place to another, there’s no comparison – you’d die of old age long before you made even a fraction of the journey across the sphere. > You know that litany of Scott Adams about how big Space is in _Hitchhiker’s Guide_? It applies to a Dyson sphere just as well. If I figured it correctly, it would take about 90 years to circumnavigate a Dyson sphere if you traveling at the speed of sound (a speed which would take you around the Earth a day and a third or so). At a walking pace, we’re talking a few hundred times longer. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/55 "2015-02-17T17:06:49Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Alvin, not Calvin (Calvin is Alvin’s little brother) And I would disagree on Alvin Maker. It feels to me that (like with a lot of Card’s work), the first couple of novels are good–probably up through Prentice Alvin–and then it goes downhill fast. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/56 "2015-02-17T18:58:41Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I really do think you don’t have a proper appreciation for the scale of a Dyson sphere. I believe I do. About 7x10^16 sq km for a sphere with a diameter of 1AU. > [@](#): > > The way you blithely toss off “within a few thousand years” for filling it (and for whicxh I’d like to see more justification, even considering the exponential factors of growth). Double the population every generation / 30 years (4 surviving children) and you’ll soon get there. Let’s say that the end population is 7 quadrillion, so 10 sq km per person and we’ll start with the population of the Earth, ~10 billion. You only require 33 generations or 990 years. Factor in a lower starting population, setbacks along the way, a lower population growth in core areas, and ‘within a few thousand years’ is quite reasonable. > [@](#): > > And it’s not merely “multi-year trips”. Ibn Battuta took a multi-year trip over les than the width of the earth. This is something many orders of magnitude larger than the earth. If you lacked high techn ology to get from one place to another, there’s no comparison – you’d die of old age long before you made even a fraction of the journey across the sphere. Fortunately, we don’t lack high technology and we’re not bound to the surface. There’s nothing stopping us using rockets or whatever. Even planes won’t be of much help. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/57 "2015-02-17T22:11:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What about Philip José Farmer’s _Riverworld_ series-a planet large enough to comfortably support all that had ever lived on Earth without overcrowding. The concept was wonderful…but the execution was a bit flat. Each book in the series is less interesting than the previous book. By the end, it’s hard to care at all any more. Also, Farmer wrote himself into a corner, and cheated to get out. He basically threw it all away and said, “Okay, everything up to here has just been a lie someone told.” That’s really bad writing, and breaks the implicit bonds of trust. Authors should not lie to their readers. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/58 "2015-02-18T00:14:28Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > If you think you can write a good Dyson Sphere story, then by all means do so. We could use a good one. But every book or story I’ve read about the concept has essentially dodged it by making the story about something else altogether. Dyson Spheres aren’t just civilization-killers, they’re story-killers, evidently. I have seen a good Dyson Sphere story, though it doesn’t focus on the Dyson Sphere. It’s “Relics”, a ST-TNG episode, which contains my all-time favorite “Trek” line: “Laddie, you’ve got a lot to learn about making them think you’re a miracle worker.” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/59 "2015-02-18T00:18:45Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > I have seen a good Dyson Sphere story, though it doesn’t focus on the Dyson Sphere. It’s “Relics”, a ST-TNG episode, which contains my all-time favorite “Trek” line: “Laddie, you’ve got a lot to learn about making them think you’re a miracle worker.” My favorite line from that is actually when Scotty goes into the holodeck and orders up the bridge of “NCC One Seven Oh One. No bloody A, B, C or D!” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566/60 "2015-02-18T00:46:38Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > You know that litany of Scott Adams about how big Space is in _Hitchhiker’s Guide_? It applies to a Dyson sphere just as well. Given the lack of mating success of Dilbert and Wally, it will take more than a thousand years to fill the thing up. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-science-fiction-or-fantasy-worlds-in-literature/712566.md?page=4)