# Big sucking void of pain that is Buffy. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 10, 2001, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509 "2001-10-10T04:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2001, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/61 "2001-10-15T02:06:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elfkin477 \* > \*\*Stoid, Friday’s episode will air again on FX on Monday, 4pm EST. \*\* BLESS YOU! ---
**Author:** ![Legomancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/779978/32.png) [@Legomancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Legomancer)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2001, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/62 "2001-10-15T13:40:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lolagranola \* > **I like the fact that the show doesn’t stagnate. They can’t stay in high school forever. Willow can’t be the sweet, naive girl forever (BTW - I think we saw a little of what she was capable of becoming with her alternate vampire self, in The Wish and Doppelgangland). Buffy and Angel can’t be a couple forever. They can’t fight the mayor forever. Everyone has moved on, matured, and changed. In that aspect, the show is, ironic considering the high demon content, more like real life than a lot of other shows out there. It’s not afraid to move on. And it’s never been afraid of pulling the rug right out from under you.** I dunno…In the real life I inhabit, people go to work to make money so they can pay bills and eat. I agree that the show used to be set in reality, which I liked. I really liked them having to balance what they were doing with the mundanities of real life. But that has been completely abandoned for a Scooby-Doo existence where they can solve mysteries all day while triple-decker sandwiches mysteriously appear. No, I didn’t want them to be in high school forever. I assumed there’d be the college life or job life for those not in college. But you’re right, the rug was pulled from under me, and a show that was previously set in a reality similar to my own is now set in one where nearly every individual has a direct connection to the paranormal. That’s just not very interesting to me. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2001, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/63 "2001-10-15T17:19:44Z")
As far as the money thing goes, I believe previews for this week’s episode said something about Buffy charging for her services… ---
**Author:** ![lolagranola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ea5d25/32.png) [@lolagranola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lolagranola)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2001, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/64 "2001-10-15T21:54:20Z")
Ok, Legomancer, the paranormal wasn’t the reality I was going for. What I meant was that in real life, nobody generally stays the same from high school all the way into adulthood. I was referring to the emotional growing up and natural changes that adulthood makes. Not the fighting demons and gods aspect. > [@](#): > > …a show that was previously set in a reality similar to my own is now set in one where nearly every individual has a direct connection to the paranormal… I’m not sure what show you were watching then. From the first episode on, the show involved slaying vampires and demons. They’ve always had a direct connection to the paranormal. My reality wasn’t similar in high school. Maybe it’s different where you live, I dunno. Let me restate. Their personalities have changed over time. I thought _that_ aspect was realistic. I think a lot of shows tend to have static characters that never seem to change, no matter how much time passes. I do agree with you on one point. The balance between the mundane and the paranormal was interesting, and I do hope that they show a little more of it in the upcoming season. I still find it interesting, you don’t, I just felt like I had to defend my point a little. 'Nuff said. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/65 "2001-10-16T04:35:26Z")
Anyone watch Angel tonight? Maybe Fred is the baddie for this season? If nothing else she’s jealous and could be a twisted soul. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/66 "2001-10-16T12:59:07Z")
**Telemark** : > [@](#): > > Anyone watch Angel tonight? Maybe Fred is the baddie for this season? If nothing else she’s jealous and could be a twisted soul. No, I don’t think that’s where they’re going with Fred. And I think you’re wrong if you’re detecting jealousy, too. She’s just got a little crush; it’s meant to be bittersweet, not malevolent. The Big Bad for this season will probably be the guy Angel was forced to rescue from Hell. And there’ll be more stuff with Darla as well. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/67 "2001-10-16T14:58:06Z")
I don’t really think Fred would ever turn bad, but that sounded like jealousy to me. \ Buffy! Buffy! Buffy! \ Alas, I missed the first two episodes of Angel, I may have missed some setup for the season. ---
**Author:** ![Peta\_Tzunami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b487fb/32.png) [@Peta\_Tzunami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peta_Tzunami)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/68 "2001-10-16T20:39:16Z")
I tried NOT to duplicate things other people said, but think I have slightly in expanding upon a few ideas… > [@](#): > > **Andygirl wrote:** Saw the whole “she was in heaven” thing coming. I think it’s an enormous plot hole that Willow didn’t seem to consider it. I could handle bringing her back because she was needed on earth, but because she was convinced that she was in hell? Come on. I, likewise, saw the “from heaven” coming…confirmed by Buffy’s first question, “Is this hell?” The flashback on the tower – showing the mystic stairway that appears before Buffy and her comments to Dawn about how everything became so clear showed that she knew she could sacrifice her life at that moment and be at peace with and/or because of it. Further back than First Slayer “Death is your Gift,” Spike foretold Buffy’s death. He said she would die when she wanted to taste of it. Interesting to reflect on the idea that she told Spike he wouldn’t be the one to bring death to her and yet, in a way, he did unintentionally…he couldn’t save Dawn from being cut and thus, Buffy had to die to stop it. And I, likewise, don’t think it’s a plot hole regarding Willow’s “bringing Buffy back from _hell_.” Each time Willow speaks of resurrecting Buffy her expressed motivations become less self-centered and more “rescue” related. She starts justifying the need to bring her back beyond, “My friend is truly gone and I ache for her presence," first, it becomes first that they need her to help fight, and then that they must _save_ Buffy who MUST be in a hell-dimension since she died an unnatural death. At first I thought it was strange they wouldn’t assume a hero/warrier like Buffy would go to heaven, then I noticed the pattern with Willow. Of course, the darkness that comes from selfishness will, I think, be an element of this season (as will this untruth between Buffy and Willow, methinks). After all, Spike, who was (and is) supposed to be a big bad because he’s a vampire has become less evil as he becomes less selfish. In fact, he has become self-sacrificing. Note, he told Xander that if the resurrected Buffy “wasn’t right” he’d do her in, even though that would be a tremendous sacrifice for him both emotionally and physically. Note: Each time self-centered is shown, something bad happens. Willow unintentionally hurts her friends with her spell, Jonathon creates an alternate universe with a big bad attacking people, etc. Finally, (on this subject) it became not enough that they brought Buffy back. When she found it worked, Willow became proud (in a way) that she’d pulled this off–that she’d brought Buffy back from what she presumed to be a hellish dimension. And what was Buffy doing? (From Willow’s perspective…) Sulking. Willow implies that Buffy, who never asked for their help in the first place, should show her some gratitude for “rescuing” her. (How many times did Buffy save Willow again?) What’s the old saying? “Pride comes before the fall.” > [@](#): > > **Trion wrote:** I will agree that the monster subplot was pointless Ah, but there was a point! The point was to deconstruct the town sufficiently to make Sunnydale even more hell-like to the returning Buffy (flames, demons, et al). She wasn’t brought back into her warm soft bed with her sister and friends looking lovingly down at her. She was brought back into darkness, a grave, and even upon clawing her way out, she is forced to immediately begin fighting for her life (and the lives of her friends) all over again. Very counterpoint when you consider her line in the speech to Spike, (paraphrased) “…I felt done…complete, like I was finished.” Death had been not just her gift to the world, but her reward – she finished her slayer duties, but resurrection into Sunnydale only brought those duties back full-speed ahead given the demon motorcycle gang. _On Giles…_ I (we) can’t blame this on Joss. It is Mr. Head who wants to spend more time in England with his family necessitating the pared down role of Rupert Giles in the Slayer’s life. _On Anya…_ I think someone (Joss?) better come up with a character profile for this girl already and f-ing decide just what she’s supposed to be! Smart, stupid, selfish, struggling to understand. I don’t think they’re showing different facets of her character, they don’t seem to know what her character is or thinks! _On Xander’s occupation…_ > [@](#): > > **Otto wrote:** OK, jeez, enough with the griping about Xander’s job. he works in construction, and construction is seasonal. If he’s any good at it, he can probably go a long way toward setting his own hours when he does work. Move along, people, nothing more to see here. While I understand that construction often has off-seasons during which workers don’t work, (1) that is usually winter, not summer and early fall and (2) does not nearly apply so much to southern California as it does northern, mid-western and northeastern states where cold weather conditions are the major factor in shutting down construction sites. It is possible _I SUPPOSE_ that the construction company he works for doesn’t currently have a project for him, but come on…we’ve only seen him on duty when it serves the plot. > [@](#): > > **Fiver wrote:** …All of Buffy’s behavior in the season premiere now makes sense. She didn’t climb the tower because she was freaked out and going back to the last thing she remembered. It was because she missed Heaven, and thought if she replayed her death scene she could get back to it. Realizing she had to protect Dawn is the only thing that could keep her in this world. I’ll give y’all something to ponder, what if, in resurrecting Buffy the way Willow did, it meant that Buffy had to _re-earn_ her way into “heaven”? What if that is part of the price? I mean, Buffy had been saving the world for several years (at least once sacrificing the life of the one she loved—Angel—to do so) when she finally realized that it was only through her own death this time that she could save it. What if to reach that point again, she has to endure all manner of trials and tribulations again to the point of complete self-sacrifice? BTW, anyone else feel REALLY, REALLY sorry for Buffy when she had her conversation with Spike. I mean, I realized early on that they were pulling her from a heavenly realm, but that speech and her deliverance of it were just heartbreaking IMHO. > [@](#): > > \*\* Telemark wrote:\*\* I think Willow would make an excellent baddie this year. Clearly, more stuff is going on in her head, she got the black-eyed look while casting the spell and clearly didn’t need Tara to make it work. I suspect they’ll work it out, possibly after losing Tara, but maybe not. I definitely see Willow going dark this season…being lured to the _darkside_. There are a number of things we’ve learned about the darkside from Buffy-verse and elsewhere. It’s seducing and subtle, promising “good things” and drawing in little by little under the guise of goodness. Spike’s turning is a great example. He wasn’t looking to become an evil menace…he was hurt and angry. He wanted a woman’s love and men’s respect. There are also foreshadowing events…she was offered the Vengeance Demon position (lost by Anya) because of her power and her pain. She has sought out the darker magic for semi-selfish reasons (bringing Tara back to her – revenge against Glory – and bringing Buffy back). The fight between Tara and Willow which results in Glory’s run-in with Tara is over how powerful Willow has become…Tara indicates “she frightened” by it. I don’t know that Tara will die but she might be driven away from Willow by her frightening power as a witch. Also, notice that every few seasons we’ve seen an inner-circle character go bad and need to be redeemed at great cost to the group – Angel and Faith. _On Slayer Activation…_ I’ve always had **some** problems with the way it works because of Kendra saying she was trained since she was little. Since Faith doesn’t show up right after Kendra is killed, we can assume that she is training and killing vamps between the time Kendra is killed and the time she shows up in Sunnydale. Why the Watcher’s Council doesn’t keep Giles illuminated on these other slayers befuddles me (especially when Kendra shows up in Sunnydale the second time having been directed by HER watcher because something bad is about to happen—no call or memo to Giles?). I understand that the Powers That Be actually “activate” a slayer, which is supposedly why Kendra is activated even though Buffy only dies for a moment (and the Watcher’s council couldn’t POSSIBLY have learned about it that quickly), but that the Watcher is shows up to train her. From the movie-lore we are lead to believe that the slayer is the same girl reincarnated generation after generation (how can she go to heaven at all, unless that relates to the fact that her replacement had already been called) – since the movie Buffy dreams of the other slayers as more than just a dream. We do see that Buffy and Faith have a strong psychic connection (though oddly Buffy and Kendra did not). In any case, there’s obviously something psychically connecting or linking the Slayers. Maybe a part of each slayer is carried on into the next generation? [Sidenote: They told Angel that Buffy died. And we saw last night that they notified Angel that Buffy was alive – which leads to the reasonable belief that they probably did tell Giles too. But, did anyone tell Faith?] Taking into account all these things and the fact that Giles knew Buffy was truly deceased (or rather did know she was being raised), wouldn’t it be incumbent upon him to notify the Watcher’s council, check on Faith’s rehabilitative progress in jail and attempt to reinstate her as “active” Slayer? I mean, the whole Glory thing mended some Slayer, Watcher, Watcher’s Council fences (including backpay). Doesn’t he have a sacred duty of protecting the world by letting the council know that Buffy has been replaced by a Buffybot? Or, should we assume from the conversations Giles had with Buffy about past “rogue slayers” the council had to jail and rehab that the council would rather have to wait until Faith died before training a new slayer that would be called by the Powers That Be? Of course, I actually try hard not to think TOO much about this type of stuff because like MST3K says, “Just repeat to yourself, ‘it’s just a show, I should really just relax.’” Regarding “Angel” – notice Fred’s in the opening credit already (and she looks a little like a bad @ss too!). ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/69 "2001-10-16T21:03:04Z")
Excellent post, **Peta Tzunami**! The only thing I can think to add is that since we’ve seen Angel visiting Faith in prison, I think it’s safe to assume that he told her about both Buffy’s death and her resurrection. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2001, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/70 "2001-10-16T21:50:10Z")
Aw jeez… sounds like FX had better get with the program and start showing \*\* Angel! \*\* Man, there is SO much going on that I’m clueless about… ---
**Author:** ![Peta\_Tzunami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b487fb/32.png) [@Peta\_Tzunami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peta_Tzunami)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2001, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/71 "2001-10-17T01:05:47Z")
Sorry Stoid, but it took long enough for Buffy to reach the magic number at which syndication begins…“Angel” has a while. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2001, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/72 "2001-10-17T01:33:55Z")
About Faith in prison: I wonder, when the Watcher’s Counsel learned that Buffy died, and the only Slayer (Faith) was in prison, what did they do? Surely they didn’t leave her there. Did they pull strings to get her released early? They have enough political clout to threaten Giles with deportation, why not reduced sentences or pardons? Or, if they still don’t trust Faith, will they arrange for her to have an “accident,” and so activate a new, non-felonious Slayer? Either way, I’m hoping to see a second slayer sometime this summer. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2001, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/73 "2001-10-17T01:35:36Z")
er, season, not summer. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2001, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/74 "2001-10-17T03:34:57Z")
Clearly, Willow showed her potential for going dark in her conversation with Giles. And Anya is picking up, she still has potential to be a great character. But the geeks have got to go. They remind me of the Lone Gunmen, and that’s not a compliment. And what’s with all the number shirts?! ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2001, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/75 "2001-10-17T06:47:38Z")
Telemark > [@](#): > > I don’t really think Fred would ever turn bad, but that sounded like jealousy to me. Really? It sounded to me like Fred had no idea who Buffy was and why everyone would be so excited by the news of her being alive. I didn’t get jealousy at all. Peta > [@](#): > > And I, likewise, don’t think it’s a plot hole regarding Willow’s “bringing Buffy back from hell.” Each time Willow speaks of resurrecting Buffy her expressed motivations become less self-centered and more “rescue” related. I don’t remember, did I say this previously in this thread or another Buffy thread? Either way, I agree. Willow totally psyched herself into the “rescue” theory when in reality she was being completely selfish. Loved Giles’ confrontation with her tonight and totally agree that this is the start of the big-badding of Willow. Which I’m desperately hoping will be in the form of a “goes near or just over the brink and then pulls back” because Willow is such a great character and I would hate to lose her and Tara in one season. > [@](#): > > While I understand that construction often has off-seasons during which workers don’t work, (1) that is usually winter, not summer and early fall and (2) does not nearly apply so much to southern California as it does northern, mid-western and northeastern states where cold weather conditions are the major factor in shutting down construction sites. We’re in a recession. New home starts are down and property values in Sunnydale are in freefall. I really just don’t care that much. > [@](#): > > From the movie-lore we are lead to believe that the slayer is the same girl reincarnated generation after generation (how can she go to heaven at all, unless that relates to the fact that her replacement had already been called) – since the movie Buffy dreams of the other slayers as more than just a dream. Apparently the movie continuity doesn’t hold completely in the realm of the series, so basing series theories on the movie may not work. > [@](#): > > Taking into account all these things and the fact that Giles knew Buffy was truly deceased (or rather did know she was being raised), wouldn’t it be incumbent upon him to notify the Watcher’s council, check on Faith’s rehabilitative progress in jail and attempt to reinstate her as “active” Slayer? Well, Giles was never Faith’s Watcher, so maybe “sacred duty” is taking it too far. But I agree that the Council should have been notified of Buffy’s death. I’d love to see Faith return, but I don’t think Eliza Dushku is interested. I have a feeling that the Council is going to be the answer to Buffy’s financial situation. If they pay the Watchers, wouldn’t it follow that they should pay the Slayers too, if it becomes necessary? Hard to save the world if you’re homeless and starving with no money to buy a new stake when the need arises… Fiver > [@](#): > > Excellent post, Peta Tzunami! The only thing I can think to add is that since we’ve seen Angel visiting Faith in prison, I think it’s safe to assume that he told her about both Buffy’s death and her resurrection. It’s not safe to assume anything that isn’t shown on-screen. but it does seem logical that if Angel had been to see Faith since Buffy died, he would have told her. There probably hasn’t been time for him to tell her of Buffy’s return. > [@](#): > > They have enough political clout to threaten Giles with deportation, why not reduced sentences or pardons? I would think it’s easier to get someone deported as an “undesirable alien” than it would be to get someone early parole, especially depending on the charges for which Faith is serving her time. They could always break her out of prison, I suppose. Telemark > [@](#): > > But the geeks have got to go. They remind me of the Lone Gunmen, and that’s not a compliment. I didn’t recognize the one who talked about sending flying demon monkeys to the school play (hurry up, FX!) but the return of the defeated geeks was pretty funny, I thought. Wouldn’t it be interesting if they turned out to be the “real” big bad of the season, after Willow either gets killed or comes back to the light? ---
**Author:** ![Peta\_Tzunami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b487fb/32.png) [@Peta\_Tzunami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peta_Tzunami)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2001, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/76 "2001-10-17T12:55:18Z")
> [@](#): > > **Miller wrote:** About Faith in prison: > > I wonder, when the Watcher’s Counsel learned that Buffy died, and the only Slayer (Faith) was in prison, what did they do? Surely they didn’t leave her there. Did they pull strings to get her released early? They have enough political clout to threaten Giles with deportation, why not reduced sentences or pardons? Or, if they still don’t trust Faith, will they arrange for her to have an “accident,” and so activate a new, non-felonious Slayer? Either way, I’m hoping to see a second slayer sometime this summer. I don’t think we can assume they told the Watcher’s Council yet. Of course, on last night’s episode Giles said that he reported to the Watcher’s Council upon returning to England. Some trickiness there. When did he report, before or after Buffy’s resurrection? I suspect afterwards as I suspect they’d frown on resurrection of the slayer – no matter how dire the need. > [@](#): > > **Telemark wrote:** But the geeks have got to go. They remind me of the Lone Gunmen, and that’s not a compliment. I suspect the main purpose of the Geeks is attempted comic relief and diversionary tactics. I expect to see them again this season, but not soon and not as a main plot point. > [@](#): > > **Otto wrote:** > > > [@](#): > > > > While I understand that construction often has off-seasons during which workers don’t work, (1) that is usually winter, not summer and early fall and (2) does not nearly apply so much to southern California as it does northern, mid-western and northeastern states where cold weather conditions are the major factor in shutting down construction sites. > > We’re in a recession. New home starts are down and property values in Sunnydale are in freefall. I really just don’t care that much. I can’t say that I **care** , but it’s sloppy writing. Money (school/college) issues only become issues when their serve the plot and that’s not great writing. They don’t need to focus on them, but ackowledging these other aspects of the character’s lives keeps the show on a reality-based plane. Also helps with time/day issues and keeps them from seeming so device-like when used deliberately within the plot. Plus…with Xander, it means he has something else to do with his time. I mean, otherwise it _seems_ like he spends a lot (most) of his time sitting around and what—researching? Researching what exactly? Or, waiting for something to come up where they need him to not fight well? Personally, I had hoped that after the Xander-splitting episode, when Xander realized he could be calm, cool and suave, that part of his personality would come out more…instead, he’s reverted. Don’t mean to sound anti-Xander, just would like to see them to develop HIS character more and keep it developed or eliminate his presence when it seems like he’s just an extra standing around to fill out a scene. Also think that the stuff with the engagement in last night’s episode was lame. If it’s such a friggin’ big step that Xander can’t tell his friends about the engagement then he made a mistake proposing. I hope the writers actually plan to do something with that rather than just drag it out as a gag that ain’t all that funny—more causing gags than being one! > [@](#): > > **Then Otto added:** Apparently the movie continuity doesn’t hold completely in the realm of the series, so basing series theories on the movie may not work. Yes, I know and concur. But, I have also heard Joss say in interviews that _some_ movie continuity issues _do_ carry over and some don’t–he picks and chooses, so I think they’re fair game until ruled out by the show’s writers. For example, the Merrick scene added in Becoming when Buffy is called is consistent with the movie (although a special guest appearance by Don Sutherland would have been so fab instead of the schmucky-looking actor they used) fit the movie version (mostly), but vampires can’t float in the tv series like they did in the movie. Regarding Giles, I don’t know if I used “sacred duty” in my post, but since Otto did, I’ll say that I think Giles believes he does have one and not just to Buffy (although primarily), but to the world that needs saved by the slayer and her watcher. BTW, Otto, I agree with you for the most part – hope it doesn’t sound like I’m contradicting-girl here. An interesting note, last week FX showed the Nightmares episode in which for a brief moment Giles believes Buffy dead (until she claws her way out of the grave – it’s their nightmares after all) and he speaks of exactly that – failing in his sacred duty to protect the slayer so she can protect others. Interesting juxtaposition with the current storyline. Definitely agree about the assuming regarding Faith. Just because we’ve seen Angel visit her a few times doesn’t mean that he does it all the time and let’s her in on all the tidbitty news. Hadn’t heard whether or not Eliza was interested/not interested in the show – just assumed that like Seth (Oz) and Mark (Riley), she was concentrating on movie acting right now or that Joss didn’t have a need for Faith in the current storyline. An overall opinion, I think there are things that can be included or omitted at the writer’s discretion to serve the plot/storyline(s), but I think there are some things that should be addressed or at least considered in some of the writing to prevent sloppy writing/development. I mean, we can suspend reality quite a bit to allow for paranormalness and unique lifestyles, but a grounding in reality has always been a solid foundation and important part of the equation for BVS’s success IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Peta\_Tzunami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b487fb/32.png) [@Peta\_Tzunami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peta_Tzunami)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2001, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/77 "2001-10-17T13:04:18Z")
From what I could tell of the projects Xander’s worked on, he’s in commercial (buildings/high-rises) construction, not single-family home construction. Example, in “Pangs” he was on the crew for the new building at UC Sunnydale. ---
**Author:** ![Trion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Trion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trion)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2001, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/78 "2001-10-17T13:16:35Z")
\*\*Peta[/b} sez: > [@](#): > > Ah, but there was a point! The point was to deconstruct the town sufficiently to make Sunnydale even more hell-like to the returning Buffy (flames, demons, et al). Those would be the demon bikers that made the town all hell-like. It was the ghostly posession demon thingy from the second episode I was talking about. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. Personally, I like the Legion of Dorks. They seem like just the kind of bad guys Buffy needs right now. Not too much trouble - more of a distraction. ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2001, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/79 "2001-10-17T13:40:07Z")
I wasn’t really crazy about last night’s episode. I don’t think I’d care if Willow was going dark if they were a little more subtle about it, I thought the evil geek thing was way overdone, but if they treat it better it might be hilarious. Very nice moments from Giles, though. ASH is absolutely wonderful on screen, and that fight with Willow was gut-wrenching. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2001, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509/80 "2001-10-17T14:01:32Z")
Just for the record, from all I’ve read and seen Eliza loves coming back and playing Faith whenever she can, and Joss loves having her, but she’s acting in movies all over the place and also attending Boston University, so at the moment she’s too busy. And I think she fits better on _Angel_ now than on _Buffy._ The overall theme of _Angel_ is, after all, redemption. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-sucking-void-of-pain-that-is-buffy/86509.md?page=5)