# Big Ten talking about being big 12 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 16, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424 "2009-12-16T00:35:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/41 "2009-12-16T16:47:08Z")
The talk is of 2 six team divisions with a playoff game. Splitting into 2 will be a battle all by itself. None are so far away that travel would be a huge consideration. The new team could make demands and make sure they get a favorable division. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/42 "2009-12-16T16:54:14Z")
Adding a playoff game (with all of its lovely revenue) is the primary reason for having a 12-team conference, which is permitted according to NCAA rules (which aren’t going to be changed, due to aforesaid revenue). Of course there’s talk. That’s why there’s talk. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/43 "2009-12-16T16:58:07Z")
The trouble is that the geography lends itself to an E-W split rather than a N-S one. Depending on if the new team wound up in E or W division, you’d have this: East Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Indiana, Purdue West Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Northwestern, New Team Holy unbalanced, Batman! The three football perennial powers in one half. You can’t forget we’re talking more than football and basketball, say if Rutgers was the 12th team you’d be sending the Iowa and Rutgers non-revenue teams back and forth. I think nobody east of Penn State or west of Iowa need apply. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/44 "2009-12-16T17:03:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The trouble is that the geography lends itself to an E-W split rather than a N-S one. I don’t understand the fascination with geographically-based splits. Why not come up with two arbitrary names, and spread everyone around? Travel considerations aren’t important any more, it increases viewership across the map, and you can set more reasonable criteria for divisional membership based on more than where their campus is located. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/45 "2009-12-16T17:03:27Z")
No more unbalanced than the Big 12 North and South. ---
**Author:** ![notfrommensa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@notfrommensa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notfrommensa)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/46 "2009-12-16T17:11:26Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > No more unbalanced than the Big 12 North and South. and IMO, that is what is wrong with the Big XII. I think they should be re-aligned to: OU, OkSU, Baylor, Neb, Colorado, K-State Tex, Tex A/M, TTU, ISU, Mizzou, Kansas ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/47 "2009-12-16T17:21:57Z")
The trouble with splitting Michigan & tOSU into two separate divisions to provide balance (once UM gets its football program pointed in the right direction again) is that either you have the possibility that the UM/OSU game becomes an non-annual matchup (similar to how the Big 12 split broke the once mega Oklahoma-Nebraska game into an every couple of years event) or you say UM/OSU meet every year regardless and then every Big 10+2 team has to be assigned a yearly cross-divisional rival to balance the schedule. Not undoable, I suppose, but it makes scheduling a mess and you have 3 year gaps between home and away matchups since you’d only have 2 rotating out-of-division games each year. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/48 "2009-12-16T17:26:06Z")
First of all, y’all keep talking about this as if football were the only consideration. While that might be true when “divisions” come into play, you would probably still see some sort of divisional split in all sports. Worrying about the relative power of the divisions on the basis of football only doesn’t take into account the relative merits of the BBall programs, for example. Secondly, while it is true that the football programs (and the Basketball programs) can easily go anywhere in the country they want, you aren’t going to want to add a team from halfway across the country (Texas) if you can add a team from someplace closer, since you’re going to see the travel impact on all sports you participate in. I wonder if Nebraska would be interested in dumping the Big XII for the Big Ten? Natural rival to the north in Iowa, they’ve got to be unhappy with the current division of teams in the Big XII, and it might help them raise their academic prestige a bit. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/49 "2009-12-16T17:33:28Z")
> [@fiddlesticks](#): > > The trouble with splitting Michigan & tOSU into two separate divisions to provide balance (once UM gets its football program pointed in the right direction again) is that either you have the possibility that the UM/OSU game becomes an non-annual matchup (similar to how the Big 12 split broke the once mega Oklahoma-Nebraska game into an every couple of years event) or you say UM/OSU meet every year regardless and then every Big 10+2 team has to be assigned a yearly cross-divisional rival to balance the schedule. Not undoable, I suppose, but it makes scheduling a mess and you have 3 year gaps between home and away matchups since you’d only have 2 rotating out-of-division games each year. That would be a good reason for an E-W split. The current guaranteed games would be preserved in my E-W scheme. ---
**Author:** ![notfrommensa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@notfrommensa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notfrommensa)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/50 "2009-12-16T17:36:44Z")
> [@fiddlesticks](#): > > The trouble with splitting Michigan & tOSU into two separate divisions to provide balance (once UM gets its football program pointed in the right direction again) is that either you have the possibility that the UM/OSU game becomes an non-annual matchup (similar to how the Big 12 split broke the once mega Oklahoma-Nebraska game into an every couple of years event) or you say UM/OSU meet every year regardless and then every Big 10+2 team has to be assigned a yearly cross-divisional rival to balance the schedule. Not undoable, I suppose, but it makes scheduling a mess and you have 3 year gaps between home and away matchups since you’d only have 2 rotating out-of-division games each year. Both the SEC and ACC have annual inter-division rivalries. And I think their scheduling is so much better than the Big XII. ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/51 "2009-12-16T17:36:55Z")
There is no North/South Big XII in basketball…they just seed the teams 1-12 in the end of season tournament. The Big East still “limping” along with a 16 team single division in basketball (talk about unbalanced scheduling there…). And beyond football and basketball, do you really think any other sports will get much attention when it comes to whatever negotiations come into play? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/52 "2009-12-16T17:40:20Z")
The ACC divisional split for football is not by geography, either. ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/53 "2009-12-16T17:42:43Z")
> [@notfrommensa](#): > > Both the SEC and ACC have annual inter-division rivalries. And I think their scheduling is so much better than the Big XII. My guess is that’s what the Big 10+2 will do, wonder how they’ll divy up the rivalry games then. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/54 "2009-12-16T17:55:26Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The trouble is that the geography lends itself to an E-W split rather than a N-S one. Depending on if the new team wound up in E or W division, you’d have this: > > East Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Indiana, Purdue > West Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Northwestern, New Team > > Holy unbalanced, Batman! The three football perennial powers in one half. > > You can’t forget we’re talking more than football and basketball, say if Rutgers was the 12th team you’d be sending the Iowa and Rutgers non-revenue teams back and forth. I think nobody east of Penn State or west of Iowa need apply. If Pittsburgh comes in, they have a natural rivalry with Penn State. So you might want to have them in the same division. Rutgers has no natural rival. I don’t see Missouri as having one either. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/55 "2009-12-16T17:56:23Z")
Missouri has Illinois. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/56 "2009-12-16T18:32:05Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Missouri has Illinois. Not really. Once you get away from the St. Louis area, the concept of a rivalry with Illinois tends to disappear. Much more important to the people in much of Missou is the rivalry with the Jayhawks, which dates back to the bad old days of the cross-border war they fought before, during and after the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/57 "2009-12-16T18:35:36Z")
So? They can still play Kansas. ---
**Author:** ![notfrommensa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@notfrommensa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notfrommensa)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/58 "2009-12-16T18:46:53Z")
It is possible to have inter-conference rivalries. UGA has Ga Tech South Carolina has Clemson Florida has Florida St FSU had Miami (before Miami joined the ACC) Kentucky has Louisville And Iowa has Iowa St There are 4 non-conference games available. There is no reason why Missouri cannot keep the Kansas on their schedule. I live in Missouri, (but not a Mizzou fan) and it appears to me that Missouri is not overly committed to their Big 12 rivalries. I would guess that Kansas (and maybe Nebraska) only get a little more attention than the other conference games. There is a lot hatred in the “Bragging Rights” B-ball game between Illinois/Mizzou which is played in St Louis every year, just before Xmas. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/59 "2009-12-16T18:53:49Z")
Rutgers has spent over 100 mill upgrading its facilities. It is in the NYC market and the Big Ten Network may be looking for new viewers. Pitt would not offer that. Penn State already has that market. Syracuse has good basketball teams but a fading football team. Rutgers has made 5 bowls in a row and may be an upcoming program. Missouri is solid in athletics. But Rutgers may be a better financial decision. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424/60 "2009-12-16T19:10:09Z")
Everyone seems to be forgetting that Michigan has had a losing record the last few seasons and finished _tenth_ in the conference this year. They’re not exactly a steamroller right now. If I had to split them into two divisions, I would do it generally east/west as follows (assuming Pitt is added, which I think is the best choice): East: Penn State Pitt Ohio State Michigan Indiana Purdue West: Iowa Minnesota Wisconsin Northwestern Illinois Michigan State If the pickup is Missouri instead of Pitt, put MO in the West and move MSU to the East. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/big-ten-talking-about-being-big-12/521424.md?page=4)