# Bigger bunch of feckless wankers: the Valar or the Jedi Council? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 27, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912 "2010-05-27T02:50:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/21 "2010-05-27T17:13:45Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > But the end of Episode 6, Anakin gets to join the spiritual elite (the ghosts of Yoda and Kenobi) based on what? Throwing his Sith master down a bottomless pit? Didn’t he offer to do that when he was trying to recruit Luke as his apprentice? What’s the diff? His motives? Please. But he saved his only son! … After having spent hours (days?) trying to corrupt him and a lifetime of horrifying evil, which included the deaths of billions upon billions and horribly torturing his own daughter. To be fair, he didn’t know that. Ignorance is no excuse. Redemption is apparently fairly trivial as long as the midichlorians are involved. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/22 "2010-05-27T17:36:50Z")
The Valar were more worthless. At least the stupid Jedi council all died trying. The Valar partied with the Elf ladies in Valinor while everyone in Middle Earth died under Melkor’s yoke. Manwe was Lord of Arda? Bullshit. Absentee slumlord. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/23 "2010-05-27T17:42:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > …Palpatine did all this in large part because the Jedi Council was dumber than a box of rocks. Palpatine outwitted them but it appears to be no harder a job than outwitting Harry and Lloyd from “Dumb and Dumber”… All true, but you said that “much of Palpatine’s “plan” in Episodes I and II is self-defeating,” and I don’t see how that’s so. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/24 "2010-05-27T18:08:29Z")
Palpatine’s plans were never self-defeating (until the last one!) because he was secretly in charge of both sides of the conflict and benefited from every victory and every loss. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/25 "2010-05-27T18:51:30Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > The Jedi seemed to be self deluded. They were too onesided, in regards to their philosophy and use of the force (toward the “good”, or “light” side). They denied themselves romantic entanglements, thinking it clouds judgement, for example. Nothing good comes from love? I don’t buy that. To cope with their monastic lifestyle, do you suppose they turned to onanism? Because that would make them wankers. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/26 "2010-05-27T19:47:58Z")
Yes. And their fecklessness is just the, er, icing on the cake. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/27 "2010-05-27T23:51:04Z")
Is all the (potential) criticism of the Valar limited to their actions in the 1st and 2nd Ages? Or did they pork the pooch somehow in the 3rd Age too? Seems sending 5 representatives over the ME qualifies as wanting to help keep Sauron in check (even tho like Yoda they should have been prescient enough to suspect that Saruman might have switched sides). Speaking of Yoda, didn’t he look at Palpatine suspiciously at one point, only to never follow up on his suspicions at all? ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/28 "2010-05-28T00:03:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Seems sending 5 representatives over the ME qualifies as wanting to help keep Sauron in check You’d think after creating, then almost destroying world, they could do bit more than subcontracting 5 Consultants, two of whom took a thousand year coffee break,and another one of whom was helping the competition, Arthur Anderson had better oversight auditing. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/29 "2010-05-28T02:44:37Z")
Oh, I know, dahling. It’s so hard to find good Istari these days. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/30 "2010-05-28T20:38:53Z")
I get the impression that they knew in advance that Saruman wouldn’t cut it in the end, but that they also knew that Gandalf would be able to successfully step up when needed. But my copy of _Unfinished Tales_ is at home, so I can’t look it up right now. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/31 "2010-05-28T22:31:00Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The Valar were more worthless. At least the stupid Jedi council all died trying. The Valar partied with the Elf ladies in Valinor while everyone in Middle Earth died under Melkor’s yoke. Manwe was Lord of Arda? Bullshit. Absentee slumlord. I doubt all the Valar were dallying with the elf-ladies; half of them were female, and I’m sure none were lesbian. My cite is the life of J.R.R. Tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/32 "2010-05-28T22:36:05Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Is all the (potential) criticism of the Valar limited to their actions in the 1st and 2nd Ages? Or did they pork the pooch somehow in the 3rd Age too? Seems sending 5 representatives over the ME qualifies as wanting to help keep Sauron in check (even tho like Yoda they should have been prescient enough to suspect that Saruman might have switched sides). > > Speaking of Yoda, didn’t he look at Palpatine suspiciously at one point, only to never follow up on his suspicions at all? The Valar did virtually nothing in the Third Age. The Elves were waning and Men were waxing; they were past the point of the Song about which they knew details. They understood Elvish nature incompletely and Men even less; they were afraid to screw things up. And yes, Yoda is manifestly a twit. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/33 "2010-05-28T22:41:06Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > To cope with their monastic lifestyle, do you suppose they turned to onanism? Because that would make them wankers. Absolutely not. In fact, they were wankless feckers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/34 "2010-05-29T15:58:12Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > The Valar weren’t terribly effective, from a purely “Why aren’t the gods taking care of us?!” perspective. Come to think of it, nobody, not even the elves, seems to **think** of the Valar as gods. I mean, nobody prays to them or worships them or builds temples to them or preaches their message, if they have a message. Narnians don’t worship Aslan, either, for some reason. They do whatever he says on the odd occasions when he shows up in person, but that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/35 "2010-05-29T16:59:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The Valar did a perfectly good job protecting their Undying Lands… This isn’t entirely true. The Two Trees were destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/36 "2010-05-29T17:09:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Come to think of it, nobody, not even the elves, seems to **think** of the Valar as gods. I mean, nobody prays to them or worships them or builds temples to them or preaches their message, if they have a message. Sure they do: [A Elbereth Gilthoniel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Elbereth_Gilthoniel). Elves are mad about this stuff. They don’t proselytize each other because there’s no point: a number of them have _met_ the Gods, so there’s little question about believing in them. And there’s no point proselytizing the other races – Men have their own fate that nobody understands and it seems not even the Vala know (or are telling if they do) what happens with Dwarves after death, if anything. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/37 "2010-05-29T17:27:03Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Sure they do: [A Elbereth Gilthoniel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Elbereth_Gilthoniel). Elves are mad about this stuff. They don’t proselytize each other because there’s no point: a number of them have _met_ the Gods, so there’s little question about believing in them. And there’s no point proselytizing the other races – Men have their own fate that nobody understands and it seems not even the Vala know (or are telling if they do) what happens with Dwarves after death, if anything. Yes, but it is odd that in a world where magic does exist that Humans have no religion, as Medieval Humans were all mad for religion, and even today most humans have a faith. Note that Aragon seem to follow the Elves a bit in this regard, iirc. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/38 "2010-05-29T18:17:44Z")
Well, Aragorn (not Aragon; that’s part of Spain, as in Catherine of) had some elvish ancestry, and was raised in Rivendell. The shock would be if he didn’t follow the Elves in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912/39 "2010-05-29T18:27:01Z")
By Tolkien’s own admission, the only bit of overt religiosity among Men in LOTR is the moment of silence before a meal, facing West towards the Undying Lands, as shown by Faramir and his men after they’ve captured Frodo and Sam. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigger-bunch-of-feckless-wankers-the-valar-or-the-jedi-council/540912.md?page=1)