# Biggest athlete . . . biggest fall from grace **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 17, 2019, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364 "2019-09-17T04:26:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wilson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@Wilson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wilson)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/21 "2019-09-17T15:59:59Z")
Ray Rice has got to be on the list somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/22 "2019-09-17T16:02:58Z")
> [@FastDan1](#): > > Is Pete Rose really that more well known than OJ internationally based on their sporting achievements? I’m not saying Pete shouldn’t be mentioned, but OJ was a Heisman trophy winner, NFL Hall of Famer, and arguably one of the top 10 greatest NFL running backs of all time. I suspect that neither of them were terribly well-known outside of the US for what they did on the field. When OJ played football, it was in the 1960s and 1970s, when the sport had even less awareness outside of the US than it does now. I wouldn’t be surprised if OJ’s acting career was largely what made him known outside of the US (at least, before the murders). In Rose’s case, I imagine that he might have been at least known in other countries where baseball is popular. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/23 "2019-09-17T16:13:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > This. Everyone else mentioned, no matter what else they did, they still have their achievements. Even O.J. was once a very good athlete. Armstrong doesn’t even have _that_. Well, he does still have a few official results from the early part of his career. He has a couple of TdF stage wins, the '93 Worlds RR, '95 Clasica San Sebastian, '96 Fleche Wallone, and assorted minor wins. That would be a respectable career for a pro cyclist. I think he stills wins this competition, though. Didn’t even have to cheat to do it… …oh wait, he did. ---
**Author:** ![FastDan1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fastdan1/32/427_2.png) [@FastDan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FastDan1)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/24 "2019-09-17T16:14:04Z")
I agree neither OJ nor Pete were likely well known worldwide. I was just questioning **Dead Cat** saying that Pete Rose was in contention, but OJ wasn’t well know worldwide. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/25 "2019-09-17T16:22:59Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Most of his charges were dropped or he was acquitted, true, but OJ was the original example in the OP and don’t forget that he was also acquitted. Brown being considered possibly the best football player ever, then having such a tumultuous life following football, that’s really a shame. OJ was acquitted in his first criminal trial. He was found guilty in the Goldman’s civil trial, found guilty in his second trial and did jail time. The man is hubris extremeus, thinking he can get away with breaking the law whenever he wants to. There’s a lovely story in the 1st Chicken Soup for the Soul about the young fan who waits outside the player’s room for a chance to talk to his football idol, Jim Brown, who asks him his name. “Orenthal James. My friends call me OJ.” That was printed in 1993. Bet you the authors regretted that a year later. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/26 "2019-09-17T16:29:00Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > OJ was acquitted in his first criminal trial. He was found guilty in the Goldman’s civil trial, found guilty in his second trial and did jail time. Jut to be clear, the “second trial” had nothing to do with the murders – it was for a [separate incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._J._Simpson#Las_Vegas_robbery), for which he was charged (and convicted) of armed robbery, kidnapping, and other offenses. Regardless…I agree, he’s scum. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/27 "2019-09-17T16:30:19Z")
Lance Armstrong definitely on paper had a huge fall: once in the argument for best ever in his international sport, and now formally stripped of his most important wins (I can’t think of anyone else who might be on this thread’s list who had their victories revoked). But, while I think he’s a major jerk and deserves to have lost his public goodwill, his crime was basically doing what everyone else was doing. Maybe there was _someone_ who finished the Tour de France (in the back of the back) without doping in Armstrong’s years, but his major competitors were all just as doped-up as he was. In other words, it’s not like he brutally knife-murdered two people. On the completely opposite end of the spectrum, for not really that big an athlete or big a fall, but honorable mention in the ‘fall unfolding live on TV’ category, I nominate Joe Namath. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/28 "2019-09-17T16:30:39Z")
[Rae Carruth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rae_Carruth), maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/29 "2019-09-17T16:32:39Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > No probably. The standard procedure when a Tour winner is found to be doping is to advance the 2nd place finisher to winner. So many of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th placers had already been banned for doping when Armstrong was dethroned that the Tour simply never named replacement winners. > And since the top riders were doping, then their teammates(who ride in support) had to be doping to keep up and perform their _domestique_ duties. You’re right, I worded that incorrectly. > [@FastDan1](#): > > Is Pete Rose really that more well known than OJ internationally based on their sporting achievements? I’m not saying Pete shouldn’t be mentioned, but OJ was a Heisman trophy winner, NFL Hall of Famer, and arguably one of the top 10 greatest NFL running backs of all time. Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I believe neither OJ nor Rose were generally known worldwide outside fans of their respective sports. But I think Pete Rose has a better claim to be the answer to the OP’s question than many others mentioned in this thread, because of his status in baseball, as RickJay has already summarised. In my view Woods trumps both, because of his status in his sport and because that sport has more global recognition. I don’t know enough about either sport to argue whether Rose was better-known than OJ for their sporting accomplishments. > [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Woods’ fall from grace, image-wise, also coincided with his body starting to break down on him. It probably would have been one thing if he’d been able to still play golf at his previous level while trying to work through his personal life, but he was also simultaneously dealing with chronic injuries, making his play inconsistent, and leading to extended periods when he played little, if at all. Indeed, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/30 "2019-09-17T16:36:57Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Jut to be clear, the “second trial” had nothing to do with the murders – it was for a [separate incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._J._Simpson#Las_Vegas_robbery), for which he was charged (and convicted) of armed robbery, kidnapping, and other offenses. > > Regardless…I agree, he’s scum. As long as I am alive, I will not let anyone forget that OJ lost the civil trial based on the murders and was stupid enough to commit another crime, found guilty and did jail time. If I had been found “not guilty” of two murders, I would never so much as jay walk ever again. Calling the man scum is insulting to the scum. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/31 "2019-09-17T17:09:16Z")
I agree with others, that it has to be OJ. Pete Rose is banned from baseball, and, at least for the moment, is also banned from the Hall of Fame. But he recently was an analyst for Fox Sports, and he might still be employed there, even though he’s really bad at it. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/32 "2019-09-17T17:09:41Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > But, while I think he’s a major jerk and deserves to have lost his public goodwill, his crime was basically doing what everyone else was doing. Everyone was doping, yes. But the other doping cyclists didn’t set out to destroy the lives of anyone who tried to expose them like Lance Armstrong did. He tried to ruin peoples’ professional and personal lives to support his lies and cheating. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/33 "2019-09-17T17:33:14Z")
The others are remembered as "athletes who fell from grace. OJ is remembered as “he guy who got off on a double murder charge and later went to prison. And, oh year, he played football and acted in movies.” OJ is remembered first and foremost as a criminal. As he should be. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/34 "2019-09-17T17:47:23Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > OJ was acquitted in his first criminal trial. He was found guilty in the Goldman’s civil trial, found guilty in his second trial and did jail time. The man is hubris extremeus, thinking he can get away with breaking the law whenever he wants to. Absolutely. It’s not like he “got away with it”. I’m just saying that when talking about Brown, if anyone is tempted to dismiss his violent crimes because he avoided punishment for most of them, OJ was the same, especially the trial that he gave him the most infamy. > [@](#): > > There’s a lovely story in the 1st Chicken Soup for the Soul about the young fan who waits outside the player’s room for a chance to talk to his football idol, Jim Brown, who asks him his name. “Orenthal James. My friends call me OJ.” > > That was printed in 1993. Bet you the authors regretted that a year later. “Kid, you remind me of myself at your age.” 😃 If anything, it’s no less appropriate a story, probably just not for the reason the author intended. (And yeah, I know pretty much everything in those books was BS, they’re basically the same inspirational urban legends and rumors you’d see today on Facebook except predating social media by many years.) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/35 "2019-09-17T18:19:04Z")
If coaches are eligible for consideration, Joe Paterno takes first prize. How many people get statues of them removed? I’d put OJ ahead of Pete Rose. At least Pete didn’t kill anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/36 "2019-09-17T18:32:52Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > I don’t follow baseball (or, really, any sports), but over the years I’ve had roommates that did so I’d pick a little up here and there. > I feel like back when I was finishing college (around 01-02), I remember hearing a lot about Sammy Sosa and Mark McGuire battling it out for the most home runs (ever?). Right around the same time there was talk of drugs/PEDs and I haven’t heard much about either since then. Sosa has become weirdly pink and I’m not sure what he’s doing but McGuire was a coach in the major leagues until this season. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/37 "2019-09-17T18:37:09Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If coaches are eligible for consideration, Joe Paterno takes first prize. How many people get statues of them removed? At the same time, he’s still the all-time Division I and I-A/FBS football coaching wins leader, despite the NCAA’s attempts to “vacate” quite a few of his wins for reasons other than using ineligible players. My vote goes to Lance Armstrong - a lot of the other people mentioned still have their accomplishments; pretty much the only thing Armstrong still has is his 2002 Sports Illustrated Sportsperson of the Year award, and he probably only has that because there’s no precedent for SI withdrawing it. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/38 "2019-09-17T18:52:39Z")
Another thing about Lance Armstrong is that he’s pretty much the only famous cyclist in America. Cycling was synonymous with him. There were no other celebrities from that sport. His fall was the fall of the popularity/awareness of the sport to the average American. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/39 "2019-09-17T19:12:44Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Another thing about Lance Armstrong is that he’s pretty much the only famous cyclist in America. Cycling was synonymous with him. There were no other celebrities from that sport. His fall was the fall of the popularity/awareness of the sport to the average American. Except for the guy said to be the greatest American cyclist, Greg Lemond. > **[Greg LeMond](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_LeMond)** > > Stage races > One-day races and Classics > Other ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/40 "2019-09-17T20:14:26Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Except for the guy said to be the greatest American cyclist, Greg Lemond. > > [Greg LeMond - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_LeMond) Never heard of him, and if it was possible to measure I’d bet most other Americans never heard of him either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364.md?page=3)