# Biggest athlete . . . biggest fall from grace **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 17, 2019, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364 "2019-09-17T04:26:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/41 "2019-09-17T20:47:14Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Never heard of him, and if it was possible to measure I’d bet most other Americans never heard of him either. Really? I don’t even follow cycling and as I recall, LeMond was pretty famous up until Armstrong eclipsed him by miles by blowing away every single record LeMond held. LeMond was the guy that put cycling on the map for the United States. And, from what I recall, there was such a large gap in Lance’s performance compared to LeMond’s that it seems likely LeMond wasn’t cheating when he accomplished everything he did. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/42 "2019-09-17T20:57:33Z")
> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > Really? I don’t even follow cycling and as I recall, LeMond was pretty famous up until Armstrong eclipsed him by miles by blowing away every single record LeMond held. LeMond was the guy that put cycling on the map for the United States. LeMond was at least moderately well-known in the U.S. when he was winning the Tour de France in the late 1980s; he was even [Sports Illustrated’s Sportsman of the Year](https://www.sicovers.com/content/images/thumbs/0002750_the-1989-sportsman-of-the-year-greg-lemond.jpeg) in 1989. But, I think, at that point, cycling was still a very niche sport here, and, as you note, when Armstrong came along, he took over as _the_ name in U.S. cycling, and the then-retired LeMond faded from the public consciousness. I wouldn’t be surprised if, as Snarky Kong suggests, most Americans today wouldn’t recognize LeMond’s name, but I think he was considerbly more well-known in his prime, 30 years ago. (Not O.J. Simpson or Pete Rose level fame, mind you… 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/43 "2019-09-17T22:17:27Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Never heard of him, and if it was possible to measure I’d bet most other Americans never heard of him either. Me either. Well, it’s vaguely familiar I guess, but if you mentioned the name I’d have no idea who you were talking about. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/44 "2019-09-17T22:55:00Z")
The perception in Nebraska is that coach Tom Osborne could be on the list “thanks to the media”. Legendary coach, 255 wins in 25 seasons, 3 national titles, no NCAA probations, and nice guy. But when he retired in 1997, all the news reports seemed to say “Oh, you mean the guy who let criminal Lawrence Phillips play?” ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/45 "2019-09-17T23:38:51Z")
I’m not sure skeletor counts as an athlete. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/46 "2019-09-18T02:14:12Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > ,Brown being considered possibly the best football player ever, then having such a tumultuous life following football, that’s really a shame. He’s also considered one of the greatest lacrosse players of all time. He’s even in the [Lacrosse Hall of Fame.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Lacrosse_Hall_of_Fame_members) Not the biggest fall, but certainly timely. Two time all-star and Pittsburgh Pirates closer Felix Vazquez just [destroyed his MLB career.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Lacrosse_Hall_of_Fame_members) If convicted, he’ll lose the remaining $13 million on his contract due to the standard morals clause. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/47 "2019-09-18T02:20:00Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > He’s also considered one of the greatest lacrosse players of all time. He’s even in the [Lacrosse Hall of Fame.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Lacrosse_Hall_of_Fame_members) > > Not the biggest fall, but certainly timely. Two time all-star and Pittsburgh Pirates closer Felix Vazquez just [destroyed his MLB career.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Lacrosse_Hall_of_Fame_members) If convicted, he’ll lose the remaining $13 million on his contract due to the standard morals clause. Your second link is the same as the first. And it’s [Felipe Vasquez.](https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/players/playerpage/2027506/felipe-vazquez) > [@](#): > > Vazquez has been charged in Lee County, Florida with one count of computer pornography, solicitation of a child and one count of providing obscene material to minors ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/48 "2019-09-18T02:29:45Z")
> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > Really? I don’t even follow cycling and as I recall, LeMond was pretty famous up until Armstrong eclipsed him by miles by blowing away every single record LeMond held. LeMond was the guy that put cycling on the map for the United States. > > And, from what I recall, there was such a large gap in Lance’s performance compared to LeMond’s that it seems likely LeMond wasn’t cheating when he accomplished everything he did. He was on an episode of phineas and ferb fer chrissakes! Phineas…and… Ferb! You don’t get bigger than that. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/49 "2019-09-18T03:46:27Z")
Don’t think I’ve seen Michael Vick here, but he’s paid his debt to society, so I guess what he did was OK. (Yeah, heard that more than once.) :smack: Tony Harding’s fall from grace doesn’t hold a candle to what happened to Debi Thomas. That’s a long-running tragedy. > **[The best African American figure skater in history is now bankrupt and living...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/the-mystery-of-why-the-best-african-american-figure-skater-in-history-went-bankrupt-and-lives-in-a-trailer/2016/02/25/a191972c-ce99-11e5-abc9-ea152f0b9561_story.html?noredirect=on)** > > Debi Thomas graduated Stanford and became a surgeon before her downward spiral began Christopher Bowman was another ice skater who met a tragic end. > **[Christopher Bowman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Bowman)** > > Christopher Nicol Bowman (March 30, 1967 – January 10, 2008) was an American figure skater. He was a two-time World medalist (silver in 1989, bronze in 1990), the 1983 World Junior champion, and a two-time U.S. national champion. He competed in two Olympic Winter Games, placing 7th in 1988 and 4th in 1992. > Bowman was born in Hollywood, California. In his childhood, he appeared in commercials and two episodes of the TV series Little House on the Prairie. > In 1983, Bowman won the World Junior Cham... ---
**Author:** ![Jet\_Jaguar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jet_jaguar/32/3562_2.png) [@Jet\_Jaguar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jet_Jaguar)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/50 "2019-09-18T14:01:45Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > No probably. The standard procedure when a Tour winner is found to be doping is to advance the 2nd place finisher to winner. So many of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th placers had already been banned for doping when Armstrong was dethroned that the Tour simply never named replacement winners. > And since the top riders were doping, then their teammates(who ride in support) had to be doping to keep up and perform their _domestique_ duties. Indeed. For example, I just looked at the final General Classification standings for the 2002 Tour. That was Armstrong’s 4th “win”, and therefore right in the middle of his run. I had to go down to Carlos Sastre in 10th to find the first rider that hadn’t been caught, confessed, or implicated in a doping scandal. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/51 "2019-09-18T14:20:39Z")
As far as the radical religious are concerned, I image OJ doesn’t hold a candle to Bruce Jenner: > [@consevapedia](#): > > Bruce Jenner (also known as Caitlyn Jenner per his own wishes, b. October 28, 1949) is an American athlete, reality show star, and homosexual and gender confusion “rights” activist. > > He is a registered Republican but has issued criticisms of President Donald Trump for not kowtowing to the homosexual agenda. This was after Jenner supported and endorsed Trump after Ted Cruz dropped out of the 2016 Presidential race. Jenner also claims to be a Christian, despite living a gender-confused lifestyle. On a side note, WTF is a “gender-confused lifestyle”? ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/52 "2019-09-18T17:02:51Z")
Mark Gastineau, defensive end for the NY Jets: Legal issues In 1984, Gastineau was found guilty of assaulting a patron at Studio 54. He was sentenced to 90 hours of community service, teaching football to inmates at Rikers Island. In 1991, Gastineau was arrested for picking up a package of amphetamine pills at Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport. He was sentenced to three years probation in 1993. In September, 2000, Gastineau was sentenced to 18 months in jail after failing to complete an anger management course after hitting his second wife, Patricia. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/53 "2019-09-19T13:30:50Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Everyone was doping, yes. But the other doping cyclists didn’t set out to destroy the lives of anyone who tried to expose them like Lance Armstrong did. He tried to ruin peoples’ professional and personal lives to support his lies and cheating. Good point; this was going beyond ‘just doing what everyone else did’ I think I’m voting for Paterno if he counts. The guy who was supposed to be the shining example of the opposite of a ‘win at all costs’ mentality was in fact perfectly willing to pay the cost of kids being raped, in order to win. No deaths, but probably the next worst thing, and there were a lot more than two victims. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/54 "2019-09-19T14:01:49Z")
> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > And, from what I recall, there was such a large gap in Lance’s performance compared to LeMond’s that it seems likely LeMond wasn’t cheating when he accomplished everything he did. LeMond was one of the earliest vocal doubters of Armstrong’s accomplishments. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/55 "2019-09-19T14:22:15Z")
What about Mike Tyson? Convicted rapist and bit his opponents ears off in his “comeback”. ---
**Author:** ![Harrington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac8455/32.png) [@Harrington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harrington)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/56 "2019-09-19T19:07:30Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > **Lenny Dykstra** — former near .400 baseball hitter… Sorry, just a nitpick here: When did Lenny Dykstra nearly hit .400? And I’ll submit Mark Chmura. Though acquitted of raping a 17-year-old, he was drunk at a party with teenagers. His career plummeted thereafter. ---
**Author:** ![Clawdio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d07c76/32.png) [@Clawdio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clawdio)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/57 "2019-09-19T19:32:13Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > LeMond was one of the earliest vocal doubters of Armstrong’s accomplishments. Indeed. And and I believe he faced a lot of blowback for it at the time. There was a 30 for 30 about LeMond and his rivalry with French cyclist Bernard Hinault that i thought was fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/58 "2019-09-19T19:39:13Z")
Everyone loves Ben Johnson, the Canadian who wins the 1988 Olympic 100m final in a world record time! _three days later_ We regret to inform you that Ben Johnson is a massive drug cheat. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/59 "2019-09-19T19:46:29Z")
When he was a champ, he was Canadian. Afterward, he was “a Jamaican immigrant”. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/60 "2019-09-19T20:05:22Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Everyone loves Ben Johnson, the Canadian who wins the 1988 Olympic 100m final in a world record time! > > _three days later_ > > We regret to inform you that Ben Johnson is a massive drug cheat. And in between, Johnson famously said: > [@](#): > > A gold medal – that’s something no one can take away from you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364.md?page=4)