# Biggest athlete . . . biggest fall from grace **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 17, 2019, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364 "2019-09-17T04:26:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/81 "2019-09-20T13:39:41Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think it has to be a world name for it to count so OJ wasn’t really widely known as anything other than an actor outside of the USA before his arrest and trial. And cricket players aren’t known for anything at all inside the USA. just saying if an all-time NFL great is too specific to the USA to meet notability criteria you are going to have a hard time including sports that have zero reach here either. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/82 "2019-09-20T14:19:19Z")
> [@Harrington](#): > > I just read your post and thought I was reading my own, until I realized my name isn’t **RickJay**. Sorry. > > I believe the closest anyone’s gotten to .400 since Ted Williams was Tony Gwynn’s .390 in the strike-shortened 1994 season. Brett was the one that hit .390, back in 1980 (exactly halfway between now and Williams’s .406, if anyone wants to feel old). Gwynn hit .394 in 1994 ('94 in '94). ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/83 "2019-09-20T15:06:40Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If coaches are eligible for consideration, Joe Paterno takes first prize. How many people get statues of them removed? > [@Quercus](#): > > I think I’m voting for Paterno if he counts. Yeah. The guy was a Living Legend before the shit went down. Evoked fanatical devotion. > [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > A’aight. You know all the names you just mentioned? Losers. Not a single one of them holds a candle to my guy. > > _ **Alexandre Villaplane** _ was a well-known footballer… > So there you go. Do you have anything more extreme than a literal Nazi War Criminal with at least 10 proven murders to his name? I don’t think so. Hard to argue with this! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/84 "2019-09-20T16:47:50Z")
> [@Harrington](#): > > I just read your post and thought I was reading my own, until I realized my name isn’t **RickJay**. Sorry. > > I believe the closest anyone’s gotten to .400 since Ted Williams was Tony Gwynn’s .390 in the strike-shortened 1994 season. That’s correct. The “near-.400” business about Dykstra comes from 1990, probably his best season, when he was hitting over .400 almost to midseason with the Phillies. Maybe because he was still a favorite of the New York press from his Mets days, there were a lot of “Can Lenny hit .400?” articles. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/85 "2019-09-20T17:17:39Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Chess is kind of the opposite of athletics, so bringing up chess is very much off-topic. > [@Harrington](#): > > The title states “athletes.” Not even in the wildest chess proponent’s wet dream would a chess player be considered an athlete. ESPN covered, I believe, the 1995 WCC, Kasparov vs. Anand. Still not athletes. Says people sitting at their keyboards.:rolleyes: Chess is a competition. The people I mentioned were world-famous, and they all had a fall from grace. In fact, unlike O.J. and some of the others cited, their (at least initial) fall from grace was directly related to their field of endeavor. Anyone here have a problem with Joe Paterno (and Woody Hayes) being on the list? After all, they were _coaches_, not athletes. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/86 "2019-09-20T17:37:55Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Says people sitting at their keyboards.:rolleyes: > > Chess is a competition. The people I mentioned were world-famous, and they all had a fall from grace. In fact, unlike O.J. and some of the others cited, their (at least initial) fall from grace was directly related to their field of endeavor. > > Anyone here have a problem with Joe Paterno (and Woody Hayes) being on the list? After all, they were _coaches_, not athletes. Paterno and Hayes were famous as coaches, not athletes, so yes they’re ineligible. If the thread was about the “biggest names in athletics” that would be different, but it’s not. Again, chess is not an athletic endeavor so it’s a total hijack. Otherwise we’re talking about famous actors, politicians, and so on. Poe was mentioned as a throw-away example too. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/87 "2019-09-20T17:49:57Z")
Someone upthread mentioned Sammy Sosa, and he’d be near the top of my list in the Non-Criminal category. He was damn near a national hero during the 1997 home run chase with McGwire, and his career stats would have made him a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer were it not for the taint of steroid use. (And it is just a taint – unlike McGwire, Clemens, Bonds and others, he never tested positive nor was named by credible witnesses as a user.\*) Yet by 2004 his attitude got him traded out of Chicago, and he’s managed to make himself more of a pariah as time passes, most recently and unforgivably comparing himself to Jesus in an interview designed to return him to the Cubs’ good graces. Like Bonds and Clemens, he’ll never sniff the HOF, but those guys were never beloved. Sosa was once nearly as popular as Michael Jordan in these parts, but now he’s barely a punchline. \*FWIW I think he did use steroids, and heavily, just based on the circumstantial and statistical evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/88 "2019-09-20T17:56:44Z")
I agree Lance Armstrong ranks high – and deserves all the scorn the world can muster – but I’m surprised no one’s mentioned the Livestrong Foundation he helped found. It’s still going strong (no pun intended) and has raised huge sums for cancer research and patient support. It’s impossible to calculate how much his unprecedented success (ill-gotten though it was) contributed to the impact of the foundation, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are lots of cancer survivors who still consider him a hero. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/89 "2019-09-21T11:34:07Z")
> [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](#): > > And cricket players aren’t known for anything at all inside the USA. Why does that have any bearing on how famous someone is? Why would fame in the USA be a requirement? There are dozens of football players and cricketers that would be instantly recognisable to hundreds of millions in dozens of countries and yet would barely get a flicker in the USA. And dozens of NFL players who would be mobbed in the USA and get nothing but a furrowed brow anywhere else in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/90 "2019-09-21T13:53:20Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Why does that have any bearing on how famous someone is? Why would fame in the USA be a requirement? > > There are dozens of football players and cricketers that would be instantly recognisable to hundreds of millions in dozens of countries and yet would barely get a flicker in the USA. And dozens of NFL players who would be mobbed in the USA and get nothing but a furrowed brow anywhere else in the world. And that’s exactly what the point is. There aren’t that many athletes recognized worldwide, honestly. If you argue that an athlete in the US isn’t that big of a deal if they aren’t famous in every corner of the world, then offer up another example that isn’t famous in every corner of the world, then you’re really just biased against American athletes. Which is silly on a message board frequented primarily by Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/91 "2019-09-21T14:32:26Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > If you argue that an athlete in the US isn’t that big of a deal if they aren’t famous in every corner of the world, then offer up another example that isn’t famous in every corner of the world,you’re really just biased against American athletes. Which is silly on a message board frequented primarily by Americans. Seeing as the prime example I offered as an example was an American athlete then I don’t think your accusation holds water. For me, a figure well known across the 90% of the world but not in the USA counts as a more famous figure than someone only really well known in the USA. Even someone only really known across 50% of the world counts as more of a big deal to me than someone only really known in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/92 "2019-09-21T14:52:18Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Seeing as the prime example I offered as an example was an American athlete then I don’t think your accusation holds water. > > For me, a figure well known across the 90% of the world but not in the USA counts as a more famous figure than someone only really well known in the USA. Even someone only really known across 50% of the world counts as more of a big deal to me than someone only really known in the USA. TBF, the biggest sport in China is basketball and in India cricket. Thats about 1/3 of the world where footballers, American nor Real, would be basically unknown. I know they are trying to push footie in China but basketball will always be king. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/93 "2019-09-21T15:58:45Z")
[Moderating] I don’t usually like to be the Hijack Police, but I’ve gotten multiple reports over this, and so in the interest of keeping the peace, I’m going to declare non-athletic competitors (like chess players) and coaches to be off-limits for this specific thread. If you wish to discuss them, I encourage starting a new thread for them. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/94 "2019-09-21T16:53:55Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > I agree Lance Armstrong ranks high – and deserves all the scorn the world can muster – but I’m surprised no one’s mentioned the Livestrong Foundation he helped found. It’s still going strong (no pun intended) and has raised huge sums for cancer research and patient support. > > It’s impossible to calculate how much his unprecedented success (ill-gotten though it was) contributed to the impact of the foundation, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are lots of cancer survivors who still consider him a hero. He also seems to be doing quite well with his clothing line and podcast. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/95 "2019-09-21T17:32:53Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Tyson had a one man show on Broadway. He’s been in movies. He’s doing much better than many boxing champs. I think that some sports tolerate human frailty more than others. A boxer could probably commit manslaughter and still have a post-conviction career on television, provided he didn’t kill a child. People assume fighters are thugs. But have so much as an affair in golf or tennis and it’s an entirely different story, especially if you’re the wrong race. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/96 "2019-09-21T18:05:11Z")
**RE: Mike Tyson’s little cartoon show** Norm McDonald _Kills_ as Pidgeon. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/97 "2019-09-22T16:54:46Z")
> [@FastDan1](#): > > Is Pete Rose really that more well known than OJ internationally based on their sporting achievements? I’m not saying Pete shouldn’t be mentioned, but OJ was a Heisman trophy winner, NFL Hall of Famer, and arguably one of the top 10 greatest NFL running backs of all time. Neither were well known internationally. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/98 "2019-09-22T16:59:51Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > The others are remembered as "athletes who fell from grace. OJ is remembered as “he guy who got off on a double murder charge and later went to prison. And, oh year, he played football and acted in movies.” > > OJ is remembered first and foremost as a criminal. As he should be. Agreed. And widely regarded as “he did did but had a good lawyer.” I think that murder )proven or otherwise) is worse than anything else. OJ was primarily known outside the USA as an actor. Second choice: Lance Armstrong. Losing seven first placings! Boxing has a number of those who fell from grace and ended up as sad wrecks. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2019, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/99 "2019-09-22T17:10:40Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > The others are remembered as "athletes who fell from grace. OJ is remembered as “he guy who got off on a double murder charge and later went to prison. And, oh year, he played football and acted in movies.” > > OJ is remembered first and foremost as a criminal. As he should be. Agreed. And widely regarded as “he did did but had a good lawyer.” I think that murder )proven or otherwise) is worse than anything else. OJ was primarily known outside the USA as an actor. In the same vein, Pistorius. I think he was reasonably well known worldwide, after all, he had novelty value. Second choice: Lance Armstrong. Losing seven first placings! Boxing has a number of those who fell from grace and ended up as sad wrecks. As has already been pointed out, many sports such as football, soccer and cricket have a huge following in some countries and are just about unknown in others. generally speaking, the only ones who are known worldwide are Olympic athletes and boxers. Maybe also tennis starts? ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2019, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364/100 "2019-10-17T03:58:59Z")
Better nominees have been put forth, but nobody has yet mentioned Jon Jones. There was a day when he heard an old lady yelling for help because somebody had snatched her purse. He ran down the purse snatcher and put him in a submission hold until the police could arrive. Hours later he won (or defended, this is all from memory, so some details could be wrong) the UFC Light Heavyweight title belt. [ETA:] At the time he was considered one of the greatest EVER. Fast forward a few years and he’s pretty much out of the sport after having failed 2 drug tests. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-athlete-biggest-fall-from-grace/840364.md?page=6)