# Biggest controversies in MVP, Cy Young, ROY voting **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 21, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236 "2011-04-21T14:59:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236/21 "2011-04-22T13:57:35Z")
The 1993 AL Cy Young Award went to Jack McDowell of the White Sox, because of his 22 wins matched to a 3.37 ERA and 158 strikeouts and giving up more than a hit per inning. Randy Johnson, with 308 strikeouts (but with a 3.24 ERA) finished second, and Kevin Appier, with a 2.56 ERA, finished third. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236/22 "2011-04-22T14:23:30Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > The 1993 AL Cy Young Award went to Jack McDowell of the White Sox, because of his 22 wins matched to a 3.37 ERA and 158 strikeouts and giving up more than a hit per inning. Randy Johnson, with 308 strikeouts (but with a 3.24 ERA) finished second, and Kevin Appier, with a 2.56 ERA, finished third. Interesting one. Obvious that McDowell got that one based on the wins alone. Appier beats McDowell and Johnson in terms of WHIP (although between Appier and Johnson it’s very close - 1.061 for Appier and 1.112 for Johnson). And has a big edge in wins against a replacement pitcher - 8.4 to 6.1 for Johnson. McDowall had 4.1, which is less than half as much as Appier and actually a distant fourth behind Jimmy Key. ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236/23 "2011-04-22T15:48:40Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The 1982 Award went to Pete Vuckovich, in my opinion easily the worst pitcher to ever win the award; he went 18-6 but actually didn’t pitch all that fantastically and was bailed out by his team defensively and offensively. At least ten pitchers deserved it more; Vuckovich should not even have appeared on anyone’s ballot. The winner should have been Dave Stieb, but you could have handed it to many other deserving pitchers. Perhaps all the writers who went to County Stadium that year mistook the “Cooooooooooop!” cheers for “Voooooooooouuuuuck!”. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236/24 "2011-04-22T16:42:43Z")
Mark McGwire getting beaten out by Sammy Sosa in 1998. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236/25 "2011-04-27T05:29:52Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Mark McGwire getting beaten out by Sammy Sosa in 1998. Sosa won out over McGwire that year because the Cubs made it to the post-season and the Cardinals didn’t. Generally, the rule is that the MVP must go to a player on a team that made it to the play-offs or was at least competitive. There are exceptions, like, for example, Andre Dawson in 1987, who was NL MVP even though his team, the Chicago Cubs, finished in the cellar. However, the voters got a lot of flack for that choice. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236/26 "2011-04-27T13:52:04Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Generally, the rule is that the MVP must go to a player on a team that made it to the play-offs or was at least competitive. That “rule” is both fictional and garbage. The award you’re describing should be called the BPOATWORGP (Best Player On A Team With Other Really Good Players). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236/27 "2011-04-27T14:04:17Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Sosa won out over McGwire that year because the Cubs made it to the post-season and the Cardinals didn’t. Generally, the rule is that the MVP must go to a player on a team that made it to the play-offs or was at least competitive. There are exceptions, like, for example, Andre Dawson in 1987, who was NL MVP even though his team, the Chicago Cubs, finished in the cellar. However, the voters got a lot of flack for that choice. As they als odid for giving the AL award to George Bell, whose team was at least pretty close but who was an atrocious pick as opposed to Alan Trammell. So many MVPs have won while playing on teams that missed the playoffs that I think it’s safe to say the “Rule” that the MVP should be from a winning team is really nothing more than a “Rationalization.” The rule didn’t apply for Cal Ripken’s 1991 MVP or Dawson or Bell or Ernie Banks or Mike Schmidt’s third MVP Award or Alex Rodriguez’s first MVP or Barry Bonds a number of times or Robin Yount’s second MVP or Jeff Burroughs or a number of others. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236/28 "2011-04-27T14:31:45Z")
One could argue from a sabermetric standpoint that a “most valuable player” is the player that adds the most _value_ to the team. By that standard, Wins Above Replacement isn’t really a measure of value on its own. If we’ve got one player on a 62-100 team who had a WAR of 10, and another player on a 90-72 team with a WAR of 7, some would say that the player on the team in the cellar was more “valuable”. But they’re wrong. As Nate Silver notes in _Baseball Between the Numbers_, some wins are more valuable than others. Specifically, wins that make your team more likely to make the playoffs are most valuable of all. Let’s look again at Player A (WAR 10, team 62-100) vs. Player B (WAR 7, team 90-72): Team with Player A: 62-100; without, 52-110. According to Silver’s analysis, each of those 10 wins is “worth” $747,000 to his team. These wins don’t have a lot of value, because none of them brought the team anywhere near the playoffs, nor did they really make the team worth watching either at the park or on TV. Value of Player A to his team: $7.47 million. Team with Player B: 90-72; without, 83-79. Now each of these wins is worth a LOT to the team. 83 wins give your team about a 5 percent chance of making the playoffs, but 90 wins give your team a 56.5 percent chance. Those 7 wins are **valuable** in every sense of the word. Silver’s analysis finds that those 7 wins are worth between $1.2 million and $4.4 million apiece, with the 89th win being most valuable of all. Total value of Player B to his team: approximately $19 million. Summary: MVP can’t be determined by individual stats alone–you need to take into account team performance as well. On individual stats, Player A has a better record, but in terms of value, Player B was far and away the more _valuable_ to his team. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236/29 "2011-04-27T14:34:18Z")
Duke - why are you inserting “to his team” into the equation? Why not “to any team”? I’ve always seen the MVP as the question “if you could replay the season, and pick any one player to be on your team, who would it be?” ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236/30 "2011-04-27T14:50:27Z")
Value has to be defined in terms of context-independent wins. When you start talking about the marginal value of wins, you end up crediting inferior players for the strength of their teammates. The question is not whether a 5 WAR player provides more money for his contending team than a 8 WAR player for a cellar-dweller; that part I agree with. But you shouldn’t define “value” in terms of money, you should define it in terms of wins. To do otherwise punishes the superior player for his inferior teammates. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236/31 "2011-04-27T15:01:00Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Duke - why are you inserting “to his team” into the equation? Why not “to any team”? I’ve always seen the MVP as the question “if you could replay the season, and pick any one player to be on your team, who would it be?” But isn’t that part of the deal with value, though? Move a player from one team to another and his stats change with park factor, strength of schedule, etc. “Value” is not immediately transferable. If it was “best player in the league”, sure, I’d buy that. But it’s “most valuable.” ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236/32 "2011-04-27T15:13:24Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > If it was “best player in the league”, sure, I’d buy that. But it’s “most valuable.” What’s the difference? I think that’s a non-distinction. When the MVP was created, players weren’t allowed to win it more than once in their career. To me, that says “best player in the league”. I don’t understand it when people try to shoehorn team accomplishments into an individual award. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236/33 "2011-04-27T15:20:38Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > But you shouldn’t define “value” in terms of money, you should define it in terms of wins. To do otherwise punishes the superior player for his inferior teammates. I recall a (possibly apocryphal) story about a player’s contract renegotiation. Great player on a terrible team, back in the 50’s or thereabouts. Club offered him a lowball number and he groused. They replied “We came in last with you, we can come in last without you.” There’s a certain validity to it, in terms of an individual player’s impact on the overall outcome of the season, players on winning teams have much more impact than those on bad teams. Unfortunately, there’s no strict definition of what the voters are supposed to be considering when voting for MVP, so you get varying definitions of what Valuable means. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236/34 "2011-04-27T15:37:05Z")
Ted Williams was screwed again in 1947. He won the _Quadruple_ Crown (Triple Crown plus runs scored), but as in 1941 finished second to DiMaggio. The story has it that Williams would have won had he not been \*left entirely off \*_the ballot_ by one voter, a Boston writer who he got along with particularly badly (each voter picked ten players, the 1st choice getting 10 points, the 2nd choice 9 points, etc). He would have won if that voter had selected him 9th. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236/35 "2011-04-27T15:38:54Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > What’s the difference? I think that’s a non-distinction. When the MVP was created, players weren’t allowed to win it more than once in their career. To me, that says “best player in the league”. How? Nobody can be the “best player in the league” more than once? ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236/36 "2011-04-27T15:46:26Z")
The 1995 AL MVP vote was a joke, IMHO. Mo Vaughn of Boston won it over Cleveland’s Albert Belle, just because Belle was an SOB and Vaughn wasn’t. Name BA HR RBI R OPS Belle .317-50-126-121-1.091 Vaughn .300-39-126-98-0.963 ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236/37 "2011-04-27T15:54:10Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I recall a (possibly apocryphal) story about a player’s contract renegotiation. Great player on a terrible team, back in the 50’s or thereabouts. Club offered him a lowball number and he groused. They replied “We came in last with you, we can come in last without you.” That sounds like a story Ralph Kiner used to tell. He wanted a hefty raise after hitting 51 homers for the Pittsburgh Pirates. The GM, he claimed, told him “We could have finished last WITHOUT those 51 homers.” ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236/38 "2011-04-27T16:46:18Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > How? Nobody can be the “best player in the league” more than once? No, just that it makes it sound much more like an individual accomplishment than relying on your team having also done well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-controversies-in-mvp-cy-young-roy-voting/579236.md?page=1)