# Biggest mammalian predator ever? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 29, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755 "2003-07-29T22:10:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/41 "2003-07-30T15:58:34Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\* And kodiak bears are NOT larger than polar bears. [Cite.](http://www.mtsu.edu/~jpurcell/Walker/Wildlife/polarbear.html)_\* Try reading **all** the posts before answering. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/42 "2003-07-30T15:59:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chefguy \* > \*\*Try reading **all** the posts before answering. \*\* You posted your retraction while I was posting. It happens. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/43 "2003-07-30T17:49:24Z")
So, on the one hand, we have **Earl Snake-Hips Tucker** telling us about something that “was probably might have been”, and on the other, we have **Floater** telling us about vegetarian carnivores. OK, I’m cool with that :). ---
**Author:** ![Jon\_the\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jon\_the\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon_the_Geek)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/44 "2003-07-30T18:14:05Z")
I just about died laughing at lunch today. I was reading through some Trivial Pursuit (Genus IV) cards, and found this question: > [@](#): > > What bear is the largest member of the _Carnivora_ order–grizzly, polar or Kodiak? Trivial Pursuit is hardly flawless… but, FWIW, they vote for Kodiak. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/45 "2003-07-30T23:29:17Z")
Anyone remember that classic Trivial Pursuit question: “What animal is the most specialized?” The answer: “The Whale” was highly mystifying. I can understand someone not understanding that “specialization” is something that you can’t quantify. But how did that person come to the conclusion that the whale was the most specialized animal, given that criteria for judging don’t exist? And how was a person supposed to figure out the answer, given that no criteria for judging are given? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/46 "2003-07-30T23:50:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jharmon \* > \*\*Not to throw myself into this argument… but it’s not terribly scientific to state something like this. > > You could get away with, “According to this cite (linked), the polar bear was and is the largest mammalian land carnivore known to exist.” > > The fact is, we probably don’t know the largest mammalian land carnivore ever… but it looks to me like _Andrewsarchus_ can safely be called the largest mammalian land carnivore that has been discovered thus far. \*\* Alright, I’m certainly willing to concede that my language was far less than precise. I’m even willing to concede that the polar bear may not have been the largest land carnivore to ever have existed, though I contend that the terms “largest” and “land carnivore” are themselves less than precise. I’d completely forgotten about cave bears, anf for some reason my searches failed to turn up any lings with them mentioned, until IU specifically looked for them. They’ve got my vote for largest ever. I’ll stand with polar bears as the current largest, though. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/47 "2003-07-30T23:51:37Z")
Oh, about bears. I think the root of the problem is that “Kodiak Bear” doesn’t describe a species, it describes a population of a variable species. Some populations of _Urusus arctos_ are very large, others are much smaller. Polar bears average larger than _Ursus arctos_. But the largest brown bears are larger than the largest polar bears. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/48 "2003-07-31T00:30:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > **I’d completely forgotten about cave bears, anf for some reason my searches failed to turn up any lings with them mentioned, until IU specifically looked for them. They’ve got my vote for largest ever.** The largest ever _what_? Cave bears (_Ursus spelaeus_) were primarily herbivores, so they don’t really pertain to this discussion. They weren’t even the “largest bears ever”, as that title is generally given to the Giant Short-faced Bear (_Arctodus simus_) - which is, incidentally, also sometimes noted as being the “largest mammalian carnivore ever”. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/49 "2003-07-31T00:36:09Z")
Wait, didn’t **Floater** tell us they were carnivores? Now I’m all confused. Screw it… Polar bears big. Ugh. Eat seal. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/50 "2003-07-31T01:59:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\*Wait, didn’t **Floater** tell us they were carnivores? … \*\* Maybe he meant they were carnivores in the sense that they were members of the order _Carnivora_? I mean, pandas are also in that order, but they are vegetarian. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/51 "2003-07-31T02:10:40Z")
A related question: what was the largest _four-footed_ land predator ever? It might have been one of the giant crocodilians, but I’m not sure whether they can truly count as land hunters. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/52 "2003-07-31T03:18:03Z")
Well, not to be persnickety here ( then again, if I was I’d be in excellent company !! 😃 ), but bears as a whole tend to walk on all fours. Sure, the stuffed animals in the museums always show them up on rear paws. But that’s just for sparring, ballroom dancing and whaling the living hell out of tourists in Yosemite. I consider them to be four-footed. Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/53 "2003-07-31T05:03:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lumpy \* > **A related question: what was the largest _four-footed_ land predator ever?** [_Sarcosuchus imperitor_](http://www.yale.edu/opa/v30.n9/story2.html) would be pretty tough to beat in that category. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/54 "2003-07-31T12:05:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Laughing Lagomorph \* > Maybe he meant they were carnivores in the sense that they were members of the order _Carnivora_? Spot on. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/55 "2003-07-31T18:13:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Darwin’s Finch \* > \*\*[_Sarcosuchus imperitor_](http://www.yale.edu/opa/v30.n9/story2.html) would be pretty tough to beat in that category. \*\* _Deinosuchus_ may have been around 15 meters long… ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/56 "2003-07-31T18:55:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tamerlane \* > \*\*You know it is fucking _killing me_ that I can’t find vol. II of Walker’s Mammals of the World so that I can settle this dispute between **Colibri** and **QED** and thereby elevate one to ‘King for a Day’ and demote the other to ‘Swill-covered Leprous Jester for a Day’. > > Stupid SDMB and its addictive urge to pedantry :D. > > - Tamerlane \*\* Well, I just checked _Walker_, which I regard as the most authoritative source on mammals . . . and guess what? It contradicts itself. From the 1991 edition: On Brown Bears _Ursus arctos_: > [@](#): > > The largest individuals - indeed the largest of living carnivores - are found along the coast of southern Alaska and on nearby islands such as Kodiak and Admiralty. In this area the weight is as great as 780 kg. On the other hand, in the account on Polar Bears, they cite another reference (_Mammalian Species_) that says that males weigh up to 800 kg. :smack: I haven’t been able to find anywhere information on the world record weights for either species. The Boone and Crockett Club lists records for North American big game animals in terms of skull dimensions rather than weight - and on that basis Kodiak marginally wins - but that is irrelevant to this discussion. On the basis of the consensus of material I’ve looked at, I am willing to concede to **Q.E.D.** that: - On average, as a species Polar Bears are larger than Brown Bears. - On average, the “Kodiak” population of Brown Bears is pretty similar to Polar Bears. However, it’s possible Polars _might_ have a slight edge. - I don’t know which species might claim the title for world record individual in terms of weight. Given that \*\*Q.E.D. \*\* has conceded on “largest land carnivore ever,” perhaps we can take turns as “Swill-covered Leprous King for a Day.” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/57 "2003-07-31T19:09:00Z")
I don’t know what swill is, but what the heck? Cover away. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/58 "2003-07-31T19:27:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cuckoorex \* > \*\*_Deinosuchus_ may have been around 15 meters long… \*\* This may be another one of those “polar bears vs Kodiaks” things 😉 From [this paper](http://ecosystems.wcp.muohio.edu/studentresearch/costarica02/crocodiles/articles/dinoeatingcroc01.pdf) [.pdf document]: > [@](#): > > we estimate maximum adult body length in _S. imperator_ to be at least 11 to 12 m (or 37 to 40 feet). This is slightly greater than previous estimates for _S. imperator_ and for the enormous Miocene crocodylid _Rhamphosuchus_. The Late Cretaceous crocodylian _Deinosuchus_ may have achieved a similar maximum body size, although this has yet to be established from reasonably complete cranial remains. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/59 "2003-07-31T20:17:37Z")
From Encyclopædia Britannica: > [@](#): > > _(Ursus arctos middendorffi)_, variety of grizzly bear found on Kodiak Island, off the coast of Alaska. It is the largest of living land carnivores. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755/60 "2003-07-31T20:56:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Gaspode \* > \*\*From Encyclopædia Britannica: \*\* ## quote: ## (Ursus arctos middendorffi), variety of grizzly bear found on Kodiak Island, off the coast of Alaska. It is the largest of living land carnivores. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the _Guiness Book of World Records_ (admittedly less authoritative than Brittanica) says the Polar Bear is. Look, if _Walker’s Mammals of the World_, which is really the most authoritative scientific source on the subject, can’t keep its _own_ story straight, I doubt we are going to nail this one down with dueling citations. I’d like to find out the official maximum weight recorded for each species, but if the Boone and Crockett Club doesn’t have it, I don’t know who would. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-mammalian-predator-ever/191755.md?page=2)