# Biggest tax cut in history is invisible/ignored **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 20, 2010, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766 "2010-10-20T12:44:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/1 "2010-10-20T12:44:53Z")
From [The New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/19/us/politics/19taxes.html), we read: > [@](#): > > In a troubling sign for Democrats as they head into the midterm elections, their signature tax cut of the past two years, which decreased income taxes by up to $400 a year for individuals and $800 for married couples, has gone largely unnoticed. > > In a New York Times/CBS News Poll last month, fewer than one in 10 respondents knew that the Obama administration had lowered taxes for most Americans. Half of those polled said they thought that their taxes had stayed the same, a third thought that their taxes had gone up, and about a tenth said they did not know. As Thom Tillis, a Republican state representative, put it as the dinner wound down here, “This was the tax cut that fell in the woods — nobody heard it.” > > Actually, the tax cut was, by design, hard to notice. Faced with evidence that people were more likely to save than spend the tax rebate checks they received during the Bush administration, the Obama administration decided to take a different tack: it arranged for less tax money to be withheld from people’s paychecks. > > They reasoned that people would be more likely to spend a small, recurring extra bit of money that they might not even notice, and that the quicker the money was spent, the faster it would cycle through the economy. > > Economists are still measuring how stimulative the tax cut was. But the hard-to-notice part has succeeded wildly… So voters are going to reject Demos because they raised taxes. … Even though they actually lowered taxes. Wonderful! I thought this was an interesting item, but wasn’t sure which forum to post it in. I chose BBQ Pit because I’d like to express anger against the lying American media(\*) and the stupidity of American voters. (\* – One of the lies is that CNN, MSN etc. are “leftish” to make up for Fox’s “rightish.” Instead CNN feels that if it gives 30 minutes to commentators telling the truth, it must then give equal time to bald-face lies to be “fair.”) ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/2 "2010-10-20T13:20:11Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > So voters are going to reject Demos because they raised taxes. … Even though they actually lowered taxes. Wonderful! Yeah, thanks for doing that whole “bipartisan” schtick, dems. You should have been sticking it to the reactionary obstructionist bastards in a way that people would fucking notice. But you didn’t. You played nice, and now you’re going to pay! Morons. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/3 "2010-10-20T13:35:42Z")
It would never have occurred to most people to notice, as the article says. My philosophy on payroll taxation is simple: if it does not appear in my bank account it doesn’t exist. Oh, it’s my money at the end of the year, but I would rather give Uncle Sugar a zero-interest loan than owe the IRS a bill I cannot afford to pay come April. So the money that they take from me gets little thought even as I look at what was taken from my pay, because in the end it’s what I have to work with that matters. $400 over the course of 26 pay periods amounts to a little over $15 per check. And really, who would notice that? A 5% difference for even a minimum wage earner would barely make a ripple on a week to week basis. It is absolutely invisible, and because of that, just like payroll taxes, it doesn’t exist. For better or worse, Obama would have been better off pushing for visible, tangible, lump-sum refund checks. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/4 "2010-10-20T14:02:07Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > It would never have occurred to most people to notice, as the article says. Right. And on top of that, Obama hasn’t done enough to take credit for it. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/5 "2010-10-20T14:15:03Z")
Fuck playing nice. I agree with **Squink**. The Dems should have been shoving this down the fuckers throats for the last year. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/6 "2010-10-20T15:05:22Z")
What does “biggest” in this context mean? Affecting the most people? The most in absolute terms? Percent? What? ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/7 "2010-10-20T15:06:44Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > It would never have occurred to most people to notice, as the article says. > > My philosophy on payroll taxation is simple: if it does not appear in my bank account it doesn’t exist. Oh, it’s my money at the end of the year, but I would rather give Uncle Sugar a zero-interest loan than owe the IRS a bill I cannot afford to pay come April. So the money that they take from me gets little thought even as I look at what was taken from my pay, because in the end it’s what I have to work with that matters. > > $400 over the course of 26 pay periods amounts to a little over $15 per check. And really, who would notice that? A 5% difference for even a minimum wage earner would barely make a ripple on a week to week basis. It is absolutely invisible, and because of that, just like payroll taxes, it doesn’t exist. > > For better or worse, Obama would have been better off pushing for visible, tangible, lump-sum refund checks. The OP alludes to the reason for the tax cut (which you write about), which was to provide a stimulus in a form that people would spend – which you seem to have done. Had this come in the form of a rebate with loud bells and whistles, conventional wisdom shows it would mostly have been saved and not provided any of the stimulus which was the goal of the tax decrease. Sure, even for better or worse, a “visible, tangible, lump-sum refund check” would have mad you happy and might even have changed the results of the polls, but if the reality for policy-makers is to make efforts to get the economy back on track, they have to do what makes the most fiscal sense, not what makes you most happy. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/8 "2010-10-20T15:09:53Z")
I didn’t qualify for the stimulus checks. Didn’t notice a tax decrease. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/9 "2010-10-20T15:29:37Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > What does “biggest” in this context mean? Affecting the most people? The most in absolute terms? Percent? What? It means that while you may have math, Obama has **the** Math! Stupid SOB’s don’t know how to _sell_, or if they do, they’ve got some sort of moral objection, or something, that prevents them from doing it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/10 "2010-10-20T15:42:24Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > So voters are going to reject Demos because they raised taxes. … Even though they actually lowered taxes. I don’t think that’s why voters are rejecting the Democrats. They’re frustrated because the economy sucks and they want to blame someone. The Dems are in charge, so they get blamed. If the GOP was in charge, they would get blamed, too. People are stupid. You can quote me on that! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/11 "2010-10-20T15:50:54Z")
> [@descamisado](#): > > Sure, even for better or worse, a “visible, tangible, lump-sum refund check” would have mad you happy and might even have changed the results of the polls, but if the reality for policy-makers is to make efforts to get the economy back on track, they have to do what makes the most fiscal sense, not what makes you most happy. But when you do it that way, you can’t be surprised that people won’t notice. You can’t say “We’re more concerned about helping the economy than getting credit”, and then get mad when you don’t get credit. It comes down, I think, to narratives. The stereotype is that the Republicans are the tax lowering party, not the Democrats, and that the Democrats tend to raise taxes, so people aren’t going to assume Democrats lowered taxes unless the Democrats make a really big deal about it. Don’t assume politics is about facts. It’s about beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/12 "2010-10-20T16:00:00Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > But when you do it that way, you can’t be surprised that people won’t notice. You can’t say “We’re more concerned about helping the economy than getting credit”, and then get mad when you don’t get credit. I think that’s slightly distorting things. The administration arranged this tax cut, the voters didn’t notice, then the NYT opined on what that means for Democrats and the OP opined on the NYT article. Is there evidence the people who orchestrated the tax cuts are mad they’re not getting credit, or is it just their supporters who are mad? It’s important not to confuse the two. Reading the NYT article, it seems Obama’s satisfied with the effect economically, if a little chagrined politically, and even then I might be reading too much into his quoted comments. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/13 "2010-10-20T16:04:32Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > I > > For better or worse, Obama would have been better off pushing for visible, tangible, lump-sum refund checks. Ya, fuck what’s actually best for the economy, or the country. Just do what you need to in order to gain more votes! That’s what it’s all about, right? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/14 "2010-10-20T16:11:46Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Is there evidence the people who orchestrated the tax cuts are mad they’re not getting credit, or is it just their supporters who are mad? It’s important not to confuse the two.. My error. I meant that the people who shouldn’t be mad about it are the people who are saying that it’s good that the administration and congress did that tax cuts that way. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/15 "2010-10-20T16:27:42Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Ya, fuck what’s actually best for the economy, or the country. Just do what you need to in order to gain more votes! That’s what it’s all about, right? So you believe the republicans would be best for the economy? It’s been proven different over the past 30 years. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/16 "2010-10-20T16:32:48Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > So you believe the republicans would be best for the economy? It’s been proven different over the past 30 years. Ah, no. I think that giving the tax cut in small increments that would be quickly spent rather than saved was best for the economy. I think that giving a large chuck of cash that looks better politically would be worse for the economy. So I think Obama did the right thing, even though it was not politically expedient. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/17 "2010-10-20T16:48:22Z")
Could it be…is it even _possible_?.. that Obama is a man who would do what’s best for the country whether he gets a second term or not? Me? Tequila and bongwater, why do you ask? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/18 "2010-10-20T17:14:01Z")
1. I don’t think $116B is the largest tax cut in history (especially if the $116B is - as I assume - the total for the two year duration of the tax cut). 2. Obama has also increased goverment spending tremendously, and most people expect that this will inevitably result in tax increases to pay for it. Most of the antipathy to Democrats in this election cycle has focused on spending rather than taxes. 3. The HCR bill included a lot of new taxes (including a lot of indirect taxes that will eventually be passed on to taxpayers/consumers). ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/19 "2010-10-20T18:19:55Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Ya, fuck what’s actually best for the economy, or the country. Just do what you need to in order to gain more votes! That’s what it’s all about, right? I appreciate your sentiments, but in this particular case, the Dems need to continue doing what’s best for the country AND get the votes. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766/20 "2010-10-20T18:41:55Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > I appreciate your sentiments, but in this particular case, the Dems need to continue doing what’s best for the country AND get the votes. I’m not sure they’ve ever gotten that “get the votes” memo. Maybe there are too many eager yet naive folks in the party who have watched too many shows where the good guys always win in the end by being morally superior and doing the right thing. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biggest-tax-cut-in-history-is-invisible-ignored/557766.md?page=2)