# Bigotry allowed, pointing it out forbidden **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [January 26, 2015, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-allowed-pointing-it-out-forbidden/710963 "2015-01-26T23:46:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-allowed-pointing-it-out-forbidden/710963/121 "2015-01-29T19:48:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As long as you agree to always defer to my view of which side is correct in any given debate, I agree. Interesting. If he doesn’t agree to defer to you, do you dispute the idea that there’s only one correct side to the following debates: -Quantum physics does not mean that Aztec shamans really could transform into jaguars. -The earth is round. -Vaccines do not cause autism. -Elvis is dead. Or do you agree with the statement you quoted after all? This may be off-topic, I realize. I don’t think the thread is really about whether there’s just one correct side to these arguments. But I do think it’s about whether “bigoted” is a reasonable description of the specific flaw certain arguments have, and whether it should be allowed regardless of the hurt feelings people may experience when their arguments are identified as bigoted. If there’s such a thing as an objective flaw in an argument, then while there may not be one objectively correct view in an argument, there’s gotta be objectively incorrect views. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-allowed-pointing-it-out-forbidden/710963/122 "2015-01-29T20:26:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But I do think it’s about whether “bigoted” is a reasonable description of the specific flaw certain arguments have, and whether it should be allowed regardless of the hurt feelings people may experience when their arguments are identified as bigoted. There is only one correct side in that debate, and it is [ul][li]Being bigoted is not a flaw in an argument, because the only flaw in an argument that is relevant to a debate is that the argument is untrue.[/li][li]Therefore it should not be allowed, because it derails debate away from the only relevant question, which is “is it true?” [/ul][/li] _:shrugs:_ Two mods have already ruled against you. Take that as “reality” being pretty clear. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-allowed-pointing-it-out-forbidden/710963/123 "2015-01-29T20:26:08Z")
Tom has answered the question. He issued a narrowly-framed instruction confined to one thread to keep the discussion civil. He wasn’t making a sweeping pronouncement for all time. What he did was reasonable and in keeping with our usual procedure. Obviously you disagree, **LHoD**. Doesn’t seem like there’s much else to say. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-allowed-pointing-it-out-forbidden/710963/124 "2015-01-29T20:36:28Z")
> [@Ed\_Zotti](#): > > Tom has answered the question. He issued a narrowly-framed instruction confined to one thread to keep the discussion civil. He wasn’t making a sweeping pronouncement for all time. What he did was reasonable and in keeping with our usual procedure. Obviously you disagree, **LHoD**. Doesn’t seem like there’s much else to say. Probably true. At this point, I’m mostly just responding to others. I would like to see Tom work on his own civility, but then again I’d like a pony, too. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-allowed-pointing-it-out-forbidden/710963/125 "2015-01-29T20:52:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > \, but then again I’d like a pony, too. Don’t despair! Make your own! Google/image “shadow puppet pony” for ideas. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-allowed-pointing-it-out-forbidden/710963/126 "2015-01-29T20:56:42Z")
Or just redefine “pony” to mean something that you already have and you’re good to go. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-allowed-pointing-it-out-forbidden/710963/127 "2015-01-29T21:02:42Z")
In response to **Bone** , a few examples of how the word “bigotry” is used around here: [Equipoise](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18087938&postcount=5) writes: > [@](#): > > I saw the movie in the theater several weeks ago but I missed that bit because I kept closing my eyes and then jerking them open, struggling not to fall asleep. It had NOTHING to do with the movie, which I thought was a beautiful love story about two people, soul mates for decades and finally able to marry, separated against their will and trying to get through a temporary rough patch forced on them by bigotry. From [adaher](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18090144&postcount=1): > [@](#): > > Plus head uncovered? Good on her. Women are treated like dirt there and there’s no reason for a proud Western woman to cater to their bigotry. From [BobLibDem](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18082121&postcount=50): > [@](#): > > I think the real reason that right wingers want Mr. Obama to declare war on radicalized Islam is to legitimize their own Islamophobic bigotry. From [BigT](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18077923&highlight=bigotry#post18077923): > [@](#): > > But, that aside, I know a lot of inconsistent people. Freedom of speech! (Unless you say something bad about Jesus.) Bigotry is wrong (unless it’s towards people X.) From [Derleth](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18071360&postcount=24): > [@](#): > > So, basically, descriptivism is the standard in linguistics for all the same reasons it’s the standard in physics: It’s an object of study, not ignorant bias and bigotry. From [Chefguy](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18062437&highlight=bigotry#post18062437): > [@](#): > > [responding to “We try not to remember good people by their worst moments, but rather by their best.”] > True, but often depending on political persuasion, personal bigotry, and ignorance; or any combination. Other than **Derleth’s** quote about linguistics, everyone else I found who used the term “bigotry” appears to be using it in the sense that I described. I didn’t do a search on “bigoted,” but I strongly suspect it’d show similar results. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-allowed-pointing-it-out-forbidden/710963/128 "2015-01-29T21:18:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Other than **Derleth’s** quote about linguistics, everyone else I found who used the term “bigotry” appears to be using it in the sense that I described. I disagree. ISTM that the usage is more consistent with the definition I quoted above from Wikipedia. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-allowed-pointing-it-out-forbidden/710963/129 "2015-01-29T21:24:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Again, I get that I’m going up against dictionaries, and this is no small hill to climb. The dictionary definition perplexes me, because it absolutely does no match my experience in how everyone uses the word. > > If you’re right, that my definition is not widely understood, then your broader point is correct. But I’m genuinely unconvinced that, in usage, most people see the word “bigoted” as meaning the dictionary definition, rather than meaning a view about the inferiority of another group of people. And if I’m correct about how the word is generally used, then it’s a “shortcut” only in the sense that every word is a shortcut for its longer definition. It’s perfectly appropriate to use one word instead of two dozen words when the one word conveys the same meaning. Well, language changes so perhaps if enough time passes we can look back on this thread and see that you are right 🙂 Until then I think at least from a common starting point the dictionary definitions should be taken as the standard usage of words. Non-standard uses are fine sometimes. I’m not sure if this is one of those times. I will add… I am right, and all the dictionaries agree with me 🙂 > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In response to **Bone** , a few examples of how the word “bigotry” is used around here: > > … > > Other than **Derleth’s** quote about linguistics, everyone else I found who used the term “bigotry” appears to be using it in the sense that I described. I didn’t do a search on “bigoted,” but I strongly suspect it’d show similar results. Well, you’ve spent more time than me. I’m not going to read each of the linked threads and do an analysis of the context from which the term was used. Upon first reading of only the quoted parts, I think it’s inconclusive. The term in each passage could be replaced with the word “intolerance” or “obstinance” and remain unchanged in meaning, I think. If that’s true, it supports my reading (and every dictionary I’ve found :)) I recognize that a reasonable interpretation of the quoted statements could be that they are using it in the sense you are. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-allowed-pointing-it-out-forbidden/710963/130 "2015-01-29T21:34:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As long as you agree to always defer to my view of which side is correct in any given debate, I agree. Be right more on stuff and I will. Or maybe you think both sides in the existence of Bigfoot debate has merit To me, the tactic you like to use is really only used if you’re wrong consistently. Nobody, not even you, really believe there are equally meritable sides to every issue. But if you’re wrong constantly, asking everyone to respect all viewpoints makes you sound magnanimous. Who could possibly be against respecting everyone? The answer: the same people who, when they are right or feel they are right, falls back to telling the other side to shut up because they’re wrong. My viewpoint will forever be that the side that is right, whatever side that is, should be listened to and the other side mocked or ignored. If that is my side, then so be it, but I try not to be on that side. Unlike others, I will change my viewpoint to fit reality if reality doesn’t agree with me, not the other way around. Despite what people may think of the harshness of my response, this is the admirable way of behaving ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-allowed-pointing-it-out-forbidden/710963/131 "2015-01-29T21:47:51Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Well, you’ve spent more time than me. I’m not going to read each of the linked threads and do an analysis of the context from which the term was used. Upon first reading of only the quoted parts, I think it’s inconclusive. The term in each passage could be replaced with the word “intolerance” or “obstinance” and remain unchanged in meaning, I think. If that’s true, it supports my reading (and every dictionary I’ve found :)) I recognize that a reasonable interpretation of the quoted statements could be that they are using it in the sense you are. They could be replaced with those words, yes–but those words are less specific than the ones I used. Folks almost never use the word to represent obstinance in a sense other than treating a class of people as inferior. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-allowed-pointing-it-out-forbidden/710963/132 "2015-01-29T23:59:35Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Be right more on stuff and I will. Or maybe you think both sides in the existence of Bigfoot debate has merit Any side in any discussion that advances appropriately strong evidence in support of a position deserves respect. The debate about Bigfoot isn’t typically characterized by both sides doing that. But if someone were to come along with a rational approach to the issue, and evidence in support of their view, then, yes. > [@](#): > > To me, the tactic you like to use is really only used if you’re wrong consistently. Nobody, not even you, really believe there are equally meritable sides to every issue. But if you’re wrong constantly, asking everyone to respect all viewpoints makes you sound magnanimous. Who could possibly be against respecting everyone? The answer: the same people who, when they are right or feel they are right, falls back to telling the other side to shut up because they’re wrong. > > My viewpoint will forever be that the side that is right, whatever side that is, should be listened to and the other side mocked or ignored. If that is my side, then so be it, but I try not to be on that side. Unlike others, I will change my viewpoint to fit reality if reality doesn’t agree with me, not the other way around. Despite what people may think of the harshness of my response, this is the admirable way of behaving The problem here is that you seek to apply this dogma to questions that do not have objective answers. “Does Bigfoot exist?” is a factual question, testable and falsifiable. “Should the United States offer paid health care?” is not. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-allowed-pointing-it-out-forbidden/710963/133 "2015-01-30T01:10:21Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Be right more on stuff and I will. Or maybe you think both sides in the existence of Bigfoot debate has merit > > To me, the tactic you like to use is really only used if you’re wrong consistently. Nobody, not even you, really believe there are equally meritable sides to every issue. But if you’re wrong constantly, asking everyone to respect all viewpoints makes you sound magnanimous. Who could possibly be against respecting everyone? The answer: the same people who, when they are right or feel they are right, falls back to telling the other side to shut up because they’re wrong. > > My viewpoint will forever be that the side that is right, whatever side that is, should be listened to and the other side mocked or ignored. If that is my side, then so be it, but I try not to be on that side. Unlike others, I will change my viewpoint to fit reality if reality doesn’t agree with me, not the other way around. Despite what people may think of the harshness of my response, this is the admirable way of behaving So, should we post a sticky on top of GD stating “The following positions have been decreed by YogoSosoth as being correct” with a corresponding list? ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-allowed-pointing-it-out-forbidden/710963/134 "2015-01-30T01:22:41Z")
Since the OP’s question has been addressed and we’ve drifted far from anything have to do with board administration, I’m closing this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-allowed-pointing-it-out-forbidden/710963.md?page=6)