# Bigotry versus genuine religious belief
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [September 24, 2020, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434 "2020-09-24T18:43:29Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 12
### Author:  [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)
#### Post date: [November 17, 2020, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/223 "2020-11-17T20:58:06Z")
Adding: though it is a bit of a bastardization of Jewish law (I just confirmed), there is a Jewish tradition that burying dishes is a way to make them kosher.
So I didn’t have to look to far to come up with a situation in which – in a public accommodation (say: a restaurant owned by an observant Jew) – health codes and sincere religious beliefs might come into conflict.
Do we require the restaurant owner to comply with health codes, or do we tell the servers that lunch might be slow because the kitchen staff is digging up the silverware from behind the building ?
[http://prosites-bnai.homestead.com/kashering.html](http://prosites-bnai.homestead.com/kashering.html)
NB: I also found another site where using the ocean was adequate to ensure that dishes are kosher. But I think I’d prefer the really hot water thing, personally.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2020, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/224 "2020-11-18T18:53:47Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#):
>
> Largely because I’m old enough to understand how the Jim Crow South functioned, and just how ‘sincere’ the beliefs were of White Southern Baptists who **really and sincerely** didn’t want to have to serve black people.
You dont have to be very old for that, about a month, I would guess. Jim Crow is alive and well.
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2020, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/225 "2020-11-18T19:21:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> Jim Crow is alive and well.
Cite? As I understand it, “[Jim Crow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws)” refers to the laws that officially enforced racial segregation, discrimination, and exclusion.
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### Author:  [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/226 "2020-11-18T19:32:04Z")
Many of the discriminatory, segregated and exclusionary practices and policies returned as soon as the legal obligations to remedy them were lifted.
The laws are no longer on the books, but that’s not a heck of a lot of comfort when you have, for example, a Supreme Court that says that affirmative attempts to desegrate are themselves racial discrimination if you’re no longer under a federal mandate to desegregate.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2020, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/227 "2020-11-18T20:44:16Z")
'Zactly.
Much as we “declared victory” and left Viet Nam in 1973 yet somehow our victory didn’t stay victorious, SCOTUS has in effect declared victory for the Voting Rights Act and the Feds have left the field.
The enemy vermin are busy retaking all the ground we previously gained and held at so much cost in blood and treasure.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [November 18, 2020, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/228 "2020-11-18T21:25:52Z")
Right, and the GOPs vigorous fight for minority voter suppression is of course- Jim Crow.
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### Author:  [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)
#### Post date: [November 19, 2020, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/229 "2020-11-19T16:11:11Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#):
>
> Do we require the restaurant owner to comply with health codes, or do we tell the servers that lunch might be slow because the kitchen staff is digging up the silverware from behind the building ?
Well, first of all, if a restaurant did kasher dishes by burying them, I’m pretty sure the dishes would be washed with sterilizer and hot water, as required by law, before they’d be used-- and they’d probably be specially rinsed before that, the remove any dirt.
But I doubt that any restaurant would kasher dishes by burying them. If a kosher restaurant had some dishes become treyf (non-kosher) for some reason, they’d probably toss them and replace them with new. If there were some reason that weren’t possible-- the restaurant had some theme that required hard-to-find historical dishes, or silver dishes, or something, I still doubt this would be the method used.
There are other methods for kashering dishes, and at any rate, the only method I know of for kashering ceramics is washing them, and putting them away, unused for an entire year, then taking them out, and washing them again.
But again, I don’t really see why a restaurant would do this. Control is pretty strict in kosher restaurants, and many of them don’t alternate between meat and dairy-- they strictly serve one or the other at all times.
There is also a law that it is not permitted to kasher an re-kasher a dish between meat and dairy (or dairy/parve or meat/parve). If you let a dish become treyf with the intention of kashering it-- well, you just can’t do that. Kashering is only for Passover, and for things that accidentally become treyf.
So a restaurant can’t be constantly burying stuff because it wants to use it for dairy one day, and meat the next, if that is what you are suggesting.
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [November 19, 2020, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/230 "2020-11-19T19:14:35Z")
Most religiously based bigotry is based on a motivated interpretation of a biblical passage, not based on practical considerations as you have outlined here.
So, if it _were_ their sincere religious belief that doing so was the proper way to prepare dishes for their next use, it would still not be allowed by health code.
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### Author:  [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)
#### Post date: [November 19, 2020, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/231 "2020-11-19T20:42:42Z")
Thanks to @RivkahChaya for all the great additional information.
But I think the point I’m making _is_ that there are no end of situations that might arise, or have arisen, where – in the case of a ‘public accommodation --’ we decide in favor of other factors besides personal belief, regardless of how sincerely held the beliefs are or on what they’re premised.
A Jewish restaurateur _could_ prefer to dunk dishes in the ocean or bury silverware in the yard, rather than adhere to secular laws. They _could_ claim religious freedom to do so.
Which is how I view the arguments about providing goods and services to a same-sex couple – the same goods and services that you would happily provide to anybody else without batting an eyelash.
If a Muslim male decides that women are not welcome in his store, are we okay with that ? What if he requires any woman – regardless of religion or ethnicity – to be ‘properly’ covered to enter his store ?
This isn’t about ‘sincerity of beliefs.’ It’s about the nature of [public accommodations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_accommodations_in_the_United_States), and many cases have essentially found the same thing: you agree to some pretty reasonable, pretty basic things when you open one.
It really is Jim Crow redux. Why would any of us do _anything_ that takes us _strongly_ back in that direction ?
It’s really unbelievably difficult for me to get my head around this LGBTQ thing being the source of _so much_ apparent misery for _so many_ people – particularly in the context of religious texts that, last I knew, made no more than a passing reference (at most) to the topic in a very large number of pages.
That we’re still talking about this … that it’s couched in terms of ‘religious liberty …’ just boggles my mind.
That people are offended by hearing “Happy Holidays” (would you walk into a board room with a mix of men and women and say, “Good Morning, Gentlemen !” ??) is really incomprehensible to me.
That “Christians,” particularly, could be **so incapable** of seeing the forest for the trees vis-a-vis the Bible is an unending source of mind-boggling wonderment for me.
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### Author:  [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)
#### Post date: [November 19, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/232 "2020-11-19T20:54:21Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#):
>
> That people are offended by hearing “Happy Holidays” (would you walk into a board room with a mix of men and women and say, “Good Morning, Gentlemen !” ??) is really incomprehensible to me.
_I’m_ offended by hearing “Happy Holidays”-- I’d prefer not to hear anything at all. I was in a very good mood yesterday morning, as I left an appointment, and someone said “Happy Holidays” to me-- the first one I’d heard this year. Totally deflated my mood. I was almost in tears as I left the building.
I could explain why, but it gets long. If you want to hear it, PM me.
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### Author:  [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2023, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/233 "2023-06-30T14:44:03Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#):
>
> They’re at it again in Colorado:
>
> [Federal court weighs whether Colorado law can require web designer to make websites for same-sex couples - The Colorado Sun](https://coloradosun.com/2020/11/16/lorie-smith-discrimination-case-colorado/)
Updating this comment the Supreme Court has decided:
> **[Supreme Court says 1st Amendment entitles web designer to refuse same-sex...](https://www.npr.org/2023/06/30/1182121291/colorado-supreme-court-same-sex-marriage-decision)**
>
> The court ruled 6-3 long ideological lines that the First Amendment bars Colorado from "forcing a website designer to create expressive designs speaking messages with which the designer disagrees."
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2023, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/234 "2023-06-30T14:56:30Z")
So businesses can refuse to business with gay people. I expect we’ll start to see some level of a return to sundown towns, but for LGBTQ+ people.
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/235 "2023-06-30T15:10:57Z")
This also got a mention in another current thread:
[https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation/978267/146](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation/978267/146)
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### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2023, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/236 "2023-06-30T15:30:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> So businesses can refuse to business with gay people.
Why would it only be gay people? What if the designer disagrees that Black people, or any other group, ought to be able to have websites that show them interacting as equals with white people?
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### Author:  [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2023, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/237 "2023-06-30T15:33:10Z")
Race, religion, sex are all specifically protected, right? Sexual orientation and gender identity are only protected at the state level, if at all.
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### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2023, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/238 "2023-06-30T15:35:43Z")
> [@RitterSport](#):
>
> Race, religion, sex are all specifically protected, right?
And does this Court think that that’s constitutional?
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### Author:  [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2023, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/239 "2023-06-30T15:37:12Z")
Well, discrimination based on race is prohibited in the constitution by the 14th amendment. Not sure what this court would say about discrimination based on sex, since I guess that’s just in the civil rights laws.
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### Author:  [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2023, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/240 "2023-06-30T15:52:22Z")
I think if being gay is not (yet) a protected class at the Federal level, then a web designer or baker business should be free to make it clear in their advertisements that they prefer to do business with man/woman marriages. Put it out there what your positions are and people can make up their own mind if they want to do business with you or not. No one was forcing them to serve gay people. But getting the SC to hand down a ruling protecting 1A free speech that allows businesses to pick and choose the kinds of people they will serve sounds very Un-American.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2023, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/241 "2023-06-30T15:54:33Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> > [@iiandyiiii](#):
> >
> > So businesses can refuse to business with gay people.
>
> Why would it only be gay people? What if the designer disagrees that Black people, or any other group, ought to be able to have websites that show them interacting as equals with white people?
What the others said – but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are efforts to get rid of the remaining protections re: race and other categories.
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### Author:  [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2023, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/242 "2023-06-30T15:56:12Z")
“JIM CROW SOUTH? IS THERE A JIM CROW SOUTH HERE? YOUR TABLE IS READY!”
[and Jesus wept]
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