# Bigotry versus genuine religious belief
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [September 24, 2020, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434 "2020-09-24T18:43:29Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 14
### Author:  [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/263 "2023-07-01T00:39:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> So businesses can refuse to business with gay people.
That’s not my read. The business can refuse to produce material in support of a practice they oppose, but they cannot refuse to do business with particular people (on the basis of protected class membership).
It’s academic in this particular case, since why would anyone but a gay couple commission a website for their own wedding? But it does mean that a gay person ordering _the same thing_ (say, a meal) as a straight person still cannot be discriminated against. The “sundown town” thing seems like quite a stretch.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/264 "2023-07-01T01:27:16Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/987306/13):
>
> > [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/987306/13):
> >
> > Correctly governed, valid religions have a hierarchy and a leadership.
>
> I reject the concept of a “valid religion.”
Exactly.
The idea that “religious” belief is entitled to the slightest consideration is utterly anathema to everything the Enlightenment project called the United States of America stands for or ever stood for.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/265 "2023-07-01T01:35:46Z")
What are the top five legitimate religions, in your view?
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### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/266 "2023-07-01T01:37:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> You have basically defined “real church” as “The way _my_ church does it”.
I don’t see that. It seems simply that it’s been defined as having historical evidence of such a practice, and an actual group of people who practice it, rather than individual belief.
I don’t think that’s workable, mind you. But it’s not as bad as saying “the way my church does it.”
The main problem is that their idea requires the State to be very involved in the Church, which is the opposite of freedom of religion. And that isn’t something that is only in the US Constitution, but considered a fundamental right.
Honestly, I think the better argument should be that you can’t violate the civil rights of others because of your religious belief. You are free to do what you do, and free to evangelize, but not free to deny service.
I’m sure Paul made tents for those “fornicators” he got mad about so much. It’s really only those who are the majority religion who can get away with that sort of thing.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/267 "2023-07-01T09:08:02Z")
All we need for the risk of sundown towns is for SCOTUS to send this kind of signal that discrimination is okay. Then a community tries it out, perhaps subtly at first, but with friendly lawyers who specifically craft the terms of refusal of service and such to fit into the “logic” of this ruling. And boom, we have a sundown town. If the DoJ, or an individual, tries to sue, are you really that confident that this SCOTUS wouldn’t rule in favor of the businesses and town? I’m not.
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### Author:  [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/268 "2023-07-01T09:37:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> are you really that confident that this SCOTUS wouldn’t rule in favor of the businesses and town? I’m not.
You’re basically making a slippery-slope argument here. Which isn’t entirely without merit; this kind of stuff happens by degrees. But by that standard, none of these decisions really matter at all; the worst members of the SCOTUS will come up with whatever justification they need to get the outcome they want at any given point, and continue to push only in one direction.
But that is not, in my view, what happened here. There is a distinction between refusing service to a protected class vs. refusing to create a particular work. And I find it very hard to argue that there should be no exceptions to the latter.
Out of curiosity, suppose the case was Westboro Baptist Church vs. Bob Website. Bob says he does not refuse service to anyone. And he makes a variety of general websites of all sorts. But WBC asked for a “God Hates LGBTQ+” website, and Bob refused based on his own atheist moral system. The WBC sues, saying that the CADA prevents Bob from discriminating against their own heartfelt religious beliefs.
Should Bob have been able to refuse the job or not? And if so, at what point does the argument differ from the one made in this case?
I’m with **LSLGuy** in that it’s insane how we treat religious belief as being of equal consideration to truly immutable characteristics like sex or skin color. But that’s the way things are. And eliminating it from consideration has certain downsides.
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### Author:  [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/269 "2023-07-01T11:16:53Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> Exactly.
>
> The idea that “religious” belief is entitled to the slightest consideration is utterly anathema to everything the Enlightenment project called the United States of America stands for or ever stood for.
It would be wrong for the US government to say that it’s okay to oppose gay marriage for religious reasons. That’s because everyone should have the right to oppose, or support, gay marriage. That’s what freedom of speech is - the right to hold and express your opinions. _CREATIVE LLC ET AL. v. ELENIS ET AL_ upholds the idea that an artistic service is a form of speech and thus protected by the First Amendment. It equally protects atheist web designers who are willing to create gay marriage websites but refuse to create heterosexual marriage websites.
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### Author:  [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/270 "2023-07-01T11:38:16Z")
Why is Anatole France suddenly demanding I channel him?
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/271 "2023-07-01T12:06:53Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#):
>
> It’s academic in this particular case, since why would anyone but a gay couple commission a website for their own wedding?
Wouldn’t a straight couple commission a website for their own wedding?
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#):
>
> But it does mean that a gay person ordering _the same thing_ (say, a meal) as a straight person still cannot be discriminated against.
In this case, the gay couple is ordering the same thing as a straight couple would.
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#):
>
> The “sundown town” thing seems like quite a stretch.
Not really. I hasn’t been all that long since there were official sundown towns, and even today, there are a number where it is still the unofficial practice.
This isn’t a slippery slope argument, where the concern is that things will roll out of control in ways we don’t understand. This is a backsliding argument, where the concern that things will _return_ to the state the were in not all that long ago.
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/272 "2023-07-01T12:13:44Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#):
>
> Out of curiosity, suppose the case was Westboro Baptist Church vs. Bob Website. Bob says he does not refuse service to anyone. And he makes a variety of general websites of all sorts. But WBC asked for a “God Hates LGBTQ+” website, and Bob refused based on his own atheist moral system. The WBC sues, saying that the CADA prevents Bob from discriminating against their own heartfelt religious beliefs.
Sure, if Bob makes hate sites, he should make hate sites for everyone. If he doesn’t make hate sites, then he shouldn’t be required to make hate sites for anyone. That’s easy enough.
Same as, if someone doesn’t make websites for weddings, then they shouldn’t have to make a website for a SSM. If they do make websites for weddings, but just not for _those people_, then that’s discrimination.
It also seems as though people in this thread seem to think that political affiliation is the same as sexual orientation, as that is the entire basis of any of the analogies proposed. I would posit that they are _not_ the same, and _shouldn’t_ enjoy the same level of protection. I’ve never changed my sexual orientation, but I have changed my political affiliation a few times in my life.
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### Author:  [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/273 "2023-07-01T13:17:41Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> The idea that “religious” belief is entitled to the slightest consideration is utterly anathema to everything the Enlightenment project called the United States of America stands for or ever stood for.
This is in the context of a decision most people hate, which seems reasonable to me. I think it’s a reasonable personal opinion to have, but this reads to me like you’re making a statement about history. As a statement about history I think it’s somewhat selective. They wrote quite a lot about what their project was, and religion was definitely involved. And it was the first amendment they made, after all.
It would take a hell of a lot of changes to the way things are done in the US for there to be no consideration for religious beliefs, and I would have thought that a lot of them would be really offensive to most people. Trump’s Muslim ban comes to mind.
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/274 "2023-07-01T13:25:48Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#):
>
> They wrote quite a lot about what their project was, and religion was definitely involved.
Not very involved, barely even mentioned.
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#):
>
> And it was the first amendment they made, after all.
Yes, and the point of it was to be _free_ from having other people’s religions imposed on you, not to make one free to impose their religion on others.
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#):
>
> I would have thought that a lot of them would be really offensive to most people. Trump’s Muslim ban comes to mind.
Trump’s Muslim ban had nothing to do with being a matter of consideration of religious beliefs, it was banning people based on their religion. Those are not the same thing. No one is proposing that we ban Christians, we are just asking Christians to not impose their religious beliefs on others.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/276 "2023-07-01T15:33:48Z")
Why is that superior to separating the two, such that people are free to believe as they wish, but not to impose their beliefs on others (including religious/ethnic/sexuality/gender identity discrimination in goods and services)?
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/278 "2023-07-01T15:48:58Z")
So if a Baptist says that something is against their religion, do we consult the Baptist Pope? Because there is no Baptist Pope. Are the Baptists a “real religion”? How about Hindus, or Buddhists? I know that it seems odd to a member of a hierarchical religion (I’m a Catholic myself), but most religions aren’t hierarchical.
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### Author:  [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/279 "2023-07-01T15:51:56Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> Not very involved, barely even mentioned.
Completely ahistorical, to the point this is not worth arguing about.
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### Author:  [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/281 "2023-07-01T16:00:48Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/987306/14):
>
> An example from history is the Ottomans. The State’s majority religion, Sunni Islam, the Ottoman Sultan was also the Caliph. There were councils of Islamic judges who handled officiating of religious matters and the law.
>
> The Ottomans recognized several minority religions: Greek Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox and Judaism. There were legal structures in the Ottoman Empire where issues of legality and religion were handled with these groups.
Curious that there’s no mention of the treatment of non Sunni Muslims.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/282 "2023-07-01T16:13:26Z")
This is all interesting history, I just don’t see why it’s useful here. Maybe that’s better than a theocracy, but it’s far worse than separation of church and state, which makes sure neither interferes with the other. History is replete with governments controlling churches, and vice versa, when they’re intermingled.
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### Author:  [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/283 "2023-07-01T16:35:45Z")
Nm, the point I wanted to make is being discussed extensively in another thread, one I hadn’t seen when I made this post.
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### Author:  [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/284 "2023-07-01T19:04:37Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> In this case, the gay couple is ordering the same thing as a straight couple would.
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> If he doesn’t make hate sites, then he shouldn’t be required to make hate sites for anyone. That’s easy enough.
You want it both ways: either two websites with different words and different pictures are essentially the same thing, or they aren’t. Either argument can be made, but it either applies to both or neither.
There’s no more such thing as a “hate site” as there is a “gay wedding site”. There’s some boilerplate text and some pictures and links. Bob acknowledges that the WBC isn’t requesting anything fundamentally different than the Pride Month website he made for a different church earlier. They provided some text and pictures and they want him to assemble it into pages and upload to a site. His objection is solely based on the specific content.
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> I’ve never changed my sexual orientation, but I have changed my political affiliation a few times in my life.
I’m not sure that distinction matters in this case. The argument was that Colorado’s law violated the freedom of speech aspects of the First Amendment, not the religious ones.
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### Author:  [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)
#### Post date: [July 1, 2023, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/285 "2023-07-01T19:27:43Z")
I’d like to quote NY Times columnist, David Brooks, from “PBS Newshour” last eve:
> [@](#):
>
> Yes, I don’t have a qualified — I’m not qualified to give it a legal opinion. I’m not a lawyer, so I look at it, is it good or bad for society?
>
> And so, in this case, you had the right for artistic expression against nondiscrimination, and it was a contest between those two. And the court chose free expression. That strikes me, just as someone who lives in American society, as doing great harm to American society.
>
> It seems to me the idea that we do not discriminate in our businesses is just — that’s much more a serious thing to break that than to restrict someone who’s really running a business, not just painting a painting, but is running a business. And if that person who’s running a business is allowed to discriminate, it seems to me it’s just a poison in our society.
Brooks, IMHO, is another one who still reflects many of the old-school Conservative positions, and – de facto – whose party has left _him_ behind (ie, “RINO”).
But – disagree with him though I may, on occasion – I could probably talk with him for hours and it would never become heated.
Which … ain’t nothin’.
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