# Bigotry versus genuine religious belief **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 24, 2020, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434 "2020-09-24T18:43:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/101 "2020-09-26T17:00:41Z")
I think that calling out a true scotsman fallacy is becoming a fallacy in and of itself. Me: You’re not a Scotsman. George: Yes, I am, see the kilt? Me: But, you’re not from Scotland. G: Don’t you see the kilt? Me: Your family isn’t from Scotland, no part of your genealogy traces back to it, and your 23 and me results don’t put any history there. G: Kilt. Me: You don’t have a Scottish accent, don’t eat or know anything about the food. You don’t like bagpipe music. G: But, I do have this kilt. Me: I’m starting to think that you just like kilts. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/102 "2020-09-26T17:04:16Z")
Let’s just put it this way: If someone refuses to take bribes - “that’s illegal” - while also texting while driving, cheating on his taxes, running red lights - he’s not **wrong** that it’s illegal to take bribes. It does make him a hypocrite since he doesn’t follow the law 100%, but it doesn’t follow that he ought to begin taking bribes. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/103 "2020-09-26T17:04:38Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Who said people have to have any basis for their religious convictions? One of the less flattering definitions of _faith_ is _belief in something for which there is no evidence._ ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/104 "2020-09-26T17:05:16Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Sure there is, but from a religious standpoint, the logical thing would be to adhere more to the whole package, not less. Look how the “It isn’t his choice, it’s something he feels compelled to do.” from the OP vanishes as soon as someone points out that the religion also ‘compels’ the person to do some stuff that isn’t aimed at hurting weaker people. Why is it that only the obscure parts of the religion that align with his personal preferences and desire to bully vulnerable groups count as requirements, and not the core of the Bible that has God himself directly and clearly arguing against things that he wants to do, like accumulating and idolizing massive wealth, or hurting his neighbors, or treating immigrants differently than the native born? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/105 "2020-09-26T17:06:05Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Look how the “It isn’t his choice, it’s something he feels compelled to do.” from the OP vanishes as soon as someone points out that the religion also ‘compels’ the person to do some stuff that isn’t aimed at hurting weaker people. Why is it that only the obscure parts of the religion that align with his personal preferences and desire to bully vulnerable groups count as requirements, and not the core of the Bible that has God himself directly and clearly arguing against things that he wants to do, like accumulating and idolizing massive wealth, or hurting his neighbors, or treating immigrants differently than the native born? I haven’t said that. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/106 "2020-09-26T17:10:22Z")
What did you mean by? > [@Velocity](#): > > We are also typically understanding of them in that “They didn’t _choose_ those rules, those rules are imposed on them by their religion.” If they are choosing to follow the rules imposed by their religion that they like, and not follow the ones that they don’t like, then they are in fact choosing which rules that they follow. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/107 "2020-09-26T17:11:04Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If someone refuses to take bribes - “that’s illegal” - while also texting while driving, cheating on his taxes, running red lights - he’s not **wrong** that it’s illegal to take bribes. It does make him a hypocrite since he doesn’t follow the law 100%, but it doesn’t follow that he ought to begin taking bribes. This is a terrible analogy. This is one that fits your OP: If someone starts beating people up to break up a gay wedding and argues that they were compelled to because there is a law forbidding it, even though the law has been ruled invalid by Obergefell v. Hodges, and claims that you can’t call him a bigot for doing so as he was compelled by the law. The fact that the law he’s citing is no longer valid, and that he’s violating other laws in assaulting participants in the wedding, and that he’s also willing to text while driving, cheat on his taxes, and run red lights even though there are clear laws against those, make it clear that his actions weren’t actually compelled by the law, but were motivated by his bigotry. And his claim of ‘that’s illegal’ is clearly just a fig leaf attempting to deflect criticism of his underlying bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/108 "2020-09-26T17:12:26Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > those people the OP mentions don’t understand the Bible, they understand what a pastor says about what the Bible says. This isn’t the case. The Bible is the most published book in existence and well over a hundred million Americans own one. You don’t need a pastor to tell you what something says when one can read it for oneself. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/109 "2020-09-26T17:13:31Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > If someone starts beating people up to break up a gay wedding Who in this thread has suggested this? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/110 "2020-09-26T17:14:21Z")
The most published, and the most owned, but one of the least read books. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/111 "2020-09-26T17:18:00Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > For the sake of keeping the thread simple, let’s assume that all these beliefs are genuinely held, not fake. My question is - is it still bigotry if a person isn’t discriminating against others because of his inward desire to discriminate, but rather, because he is adhering to a religion which, he feels, _ **requires** _ such discrimination? It isn’t his choice, it’s something he feels compelled to do. > [@](#): > > I haven’t said that. In your OP, you literally made the statement that I quoted. The claim that the person is discriminating against weaker minorirites them because he feels his religion requires that he do so is also yours. The rest of that post was simple observation of where the alleged compulsion comes from, as well as examining the bible and behavior of real world behavior like your example. It’s pretty clear that you have no actual counterargument when the best you can do is argue that you haven’t said a direct quote. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/112 "2020-09-26T17:19:37Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Who in this thread has suggested this? Who in this thread suggested taking bribes, texting while driving, cheating on taxes, or running red lights? What I posted is an ANALOGY, not a claim that someone advocated that specific action. If you’re not sure what an analogy is or how they work, you probably shouldn’t use them yourself. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/113 "2020-09-26T17:28:35Z")
If he is doing all these things, he is breaking all of those laws. He is a “sinner” if we are calling the breaking of the laws you are supposed to follow a sin. And if he accepts that he is a sinner, then he has no room to judge others for their sins. It is that he claims that these laws that he doesn’t want to follow just don’t apply to him, but the law that he wants _you_ to follow does apply to _you_. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/114 "2020-09-26T19:53:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > My question is - is it still bigotry if a person isn’t discriminating against others because of his inward desire to discriminate, but rather, because he is adhering to a religion which, he feels, _ **requires** _ such discrimination? It isn’t his choice, it’s something he feels compelled to do. bigotry = intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself. Yes it is bigotry because the act of intolerance is absolute and not related to his degree of inward desire. Adhering to a religion is a choice, You are responsible for the whole package. Is it possible, free of external force, to discriminate without an inward desire to discriminate? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/115 "2020-09-26T23:24:59Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Is it possible, free of external force, to discriminate without an inward desire to discriminate? Yes, it’s called ‘unconscious bias’. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/116 "2020-09-27T06:37:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If he is doing all these things, he is breaking all of those laws. He is a “sinner” if we are calling the breaking of the laws you are supposed to follow a sin. This doesn’t really tie back to the OP - the relevant point is not whether he is a ‘sinner’ or a ‘lawbreaker’, but whether he is exercising choice in deciding what parts of religion or the law to follow. The original contention was that someone engaging in bigotry because of religion should not have it counted against them, because they have no choice, and that they are not acting on any preexisting prejudice but instead are following the word of God. The fact that they actually pick and choose which pieces to follow disproves the claim that they have no choice, which invalidates the defense raised in the OP. The switching around to ‘is he a sinner’ and ‘shouldn’t he then follow more of the religion, not less’ are attempts to shift away from the original argument. If he’s exercising choice in what parts of the religion he follows, then the argument that he’s not responsible for bullying weaker people because he has no choice falls apart. Criticizing the person for being hypocritical is true, but isn’t likely to bother them, and doesn’t invalidate the original argument. ---
**Author:** ![razordance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@razordance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/razordance)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/117 "2020-09-27T08:42:58Z")
How CAN there be any difference between “bigotry” and “genuine religious belief”?! That would hold true even if we were all Buddhists! ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/118 "2020-09-27T11:50:05Z")
I don’t get it. Can you flesh this out a little? Are you saying, for example, Reform Jews, Unitarian Universalists, Deists, and other such mellow religious people are all bigoted somehow? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/119 "2020-09-27T11:55:58Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Let’s just put it this way: > > If someone refuses to take bribes - “that’s illegal” - while also texting while driving, cheating on his taxes, running red lights - he’s not **wrong** that it’s illegal to take bribes. It does make him a hypocrite since he doesn’t follow the law 100%, but it doesn’t follow that he ought to begin taking bribes. Right, this is similar to cafeteria Christians – they break these laws, but not those laws. It just happens that the ones they don’t break are the ones that justify their bigotry. If I’m a cafeteria law follower, I break the laws I find inconvenient and I don’t think should be laws (hey, man, weed should be legal anyway), but I don’t break the ones I agree with (bribery is wrong!). I’m not sure how this bolsters your case, unless I misunderstand your analogy. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434/120 "2020-09-27T14:14:02Z")
Fair enough. So they are both a bigot _and_ a hypocrite. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bigotry-versus-genuine-religious-belief/921434.md?page=7)