# Bike Riders? Are they a pain in the ass? Or are motorists too damn impatient? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 16, 2013, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954 "2013-09-16T07:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![biqu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@biqu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/biqu)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/61 "2013-09-20T11:08:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Very few cities are set up with a level of transit that can compete with a car. For many cities, true, it’s not feasible to modify the _physical infrastructure_ to make public transit more appealing. But modifying the _financial incentives_ is much more doable, as illustrated by Singapore’s massive fees permitting car drivers to bring their vehicles into the central business zones. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/62 "2013-09-20T11:16:30Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Cycling on the road is fine in the right situation. If there’s enough space, like bike lanes or paths or whatever, it’s ok. But bikes have to follow the rules of the road, and a lot of places have minimum speeds. > > I get mad at bike riders when I get stuck behind someone on a bike doing 2mph on a crowded 1 lane road during rush hour. In cases like that bike riding might be legal, but sure as hell isn’t appropriate. I’m all for building better bike lanes, but right now there’s a lot of roads that bikes just don’t belong on. 1. Please cite ANY road outside of a limited access highway that has a “minimum” speed. 2. 2mph is below walking speed, I average 15mph on my commute and that includes stops 3. bike lanes tend to be FAR more risky for bike riders for multiple reasons. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/63 "2013-09-20T11:39:24Z")
> [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](#): > > That’s where you’re wrong. A tollway charges for usage. All other roads known as “shared access” are free, the world over. Arguing that “vehicle costs” such as registration is actually a "usage cost’ indicates you think you’re a victim in some manner, that those vermin bike riders are getting away with something that you can’t get away with. It’s a disingenuous position, and it confirms in my view that even if a bike rider had a licence plate you’d still find a reason to have disdain for them. > > Indeed, there isn’t a country on the planet where even 5% of road infrastructure is funded by registration and licensing costs. Overwhelmingly, road infrastructure is paid for out of consolidated revenue, otherwise known as taxation revenue. Unless, of course, it’s specifically designed from the outset, as a tollway. That’s when user pays. To back up your claim here are the actual numbers from my home City of Seattle. > [@](#): > > Grants & Other: $96.9 (29 percent) > Debt: $77.4 (23 percent) > Bridging the Gap (a property-tax levy passed by voters in 2007): $60.9 (18 percent) > General Fund: $42.3 (12 percent) > Reimbursables: $42 (12 percent) > Gas Tax: $13.4 (4 percent) > Cumulative Reserve Fund: $7.6 (2 percent) Even gas taxes are a minimal contribution. Really that argument is based on the myth of a “model minority”. And you are correct, being a model minority never gets you rights and it is only a way for people to dismiss others due to a perceived “moral failing” ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/64 "2013-09-20T18:35:42Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Cycling on the road is fine in the right situation. If there’s enough space, like bike lanes or paths or whatever, it’s ok. But bikes have to follow the rules of the road, and a lot of places have minimum speeds. > > I get mad at bike riders when I get stuck behind someone on a bike doing 2mph on a crowded 1 lane road during rush hour. In cases like that bike riding might be legal, but sure as hell isn’t appropriate. I’m all for building better bike lanes, but right now there’s a lot of roads that bikes just don’t belong on. I’m assuming that involves any you might happen to be using at the time? I’ve done a considerable amount of city riding and during rush hour I had no problems whatsoever overtaking traffic in Winnipeg on roads with a 60 kmh limit. By car my drive home was roughly 25-45 minutes to and from work. By bike it was _on average_, 15 minutes. BTW, that’s following the traffic laws, stop signs and red lights, and staying out of the turning lanes. We all have to share the road, and sometimes that means driving defensively and that you have to share it with bicyclists, too. To answer the OP, Yes bike riders can be a PITA, especially when they ride like jerks (headsets on, on sidewalks, and my favorite, on the wrong side of the road…) and motorists can be way too impatient. In the ten years I commuted in Wpg, I was only ever cut off three times, and none of them intentionally. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/65 "2013-09-20T19:55:35Z")
> [@austerity](#): > > All that you say is true but the cars driving behind you don’t know that. > > If all you have to pay is $15 for a yellow sticker on your bike to tell the drivers behind you that you paid your fair share to use the road and thus gain their respect, then I think that is a fair price to pay. > > I know that from my experience cycling in Honolulu (with a visible mandatory registration sticker) vs Los Angeles (no mandatory registration), car drivers in Honolulu give me much more respect and patience vs car drivers in Los Angeles where honking and yelling is a daily occurrence. > > If more cities followed Honolulu’s mandatory bicycle registration laws, then I think it would solve this bicycle vs car feud since now bicycles are now paying their fair share and car drivers can’t whine anymore. You are ignoring the reality of the fundamental attribution error. [ > [@](#): > > But it’s not because I’m on a bike—I’m an a\*\*hole on the road no matter what. I’m also a stereotypical Jersey driver, someone who treats speed limits as speed minimums and curses those who disagree. And I’m just as bad as a pedestrian, another jaywalking smartphone zombie oblivious to the world beyond my glowing screen. If I’m moving, I’m an accident waiting to happen. ]([Cyclists are annoying: Why you think they’re a menace on two wheels.](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/09/cyclists_are_annoying_why_you_think_they_re_a_menace_on_two_wheels_.html)) ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/66 "2013-09-20T21:18:02Z")
> [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](#): > > That’s where you’re wrong. A tollway charges for usage. All other roads known as “shared access” are free, the world over. Arguing that “vehicle costs” such as registration is actually a "usage cost’ indicates you think you’re a victim in some manner, that those vermin bike riders are getting away with something that you can’t get away with. It’s a disingenuous position, and it confirms in my view that even if a bike rider had a licence plate you’d still find a reason to have disdain for them. I’ve got no more disdain for bicyclists than anyone else on the roads, whether they’re registered or not, paying or not, whatever. Your assumption that I disdain them especially is indicating _you_ think you’re a victim. My personal view is that bicyclists are just another species of jerk using the roads - no better or worse than cabbies, inattentive pedestrians, inconsiderate truck drivers blocking the entire lane to unload, cops that use lights and siren just to get thru the intersection 10 seconds faster, and so on. That screed someone wrote earlier where if they had to register and pay fees they were going to clog the street and poke along and do all sorts of other jerk-moves? My first thought was “and this would be a change how?” Maybe the poster isn’t doing that already, but lots of cyclists are, and every group on the road tends to be judged by its bad actors. What’s weird to me is bicyclists seem to think they’re exempt from that. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/67 "2013-09-23T02:05:06Z")
> [@biqu](#): > > For many cities, true, it’s not feasible to modify the _physical infrastructure_ to make public transit more appealing. But modifying the _financial incentives_ is much more doable, as illustrated by Singapore’s massive fees permitting car drivers to bring their vehicles into the central business zones. Not disagreeing with you post as such, but just to point out - the fees for entry to the CBD are not “massive” - depending on the time of day they range between 50 cents and $2.00. For the morning commute, if you use certain expressways you can be charged up to about $5.00 for each road pricing point you pass - while not cheap (and not something I would be willing to pay on a regular basis) still not something I’d be willing to pay on a regular basis. On the other hand - the certificate of entitlement ( a licence to own a car for 10 years) is currently running at $83,000 for cars up to 1600cc and $87,000 for cars above 1600 cc (and is predicted to go up again) - now that is massive. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/68 "2013-09-23T03:59:29Z")
> [@biqu](#): > > For many cities, true, it’s not feasible to modify the _physical infrastructure_ to make public transit more appealing. But modifying the _financial incentives_ is much more doable, as illustrated by Singapore’s massive fees permitting car drivers to bring their vehicles into the central business zones. that doesn’t make public transportation more appealing, that’s just screwing over people for the act of owning a car. In the US the direct result of that would likely be the relocation of businesses to where people are treated better. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/69 "2013-09-24T04:25:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > that doesn’t make public transportation more appealing, that’s just screwing over people for the act of owning a car. In the US the direct result of that would likely be the relocation of businesses to where people are treated better. yes it does - if you must pay $5 to drive into town, vs $1.80 for public transport, of course Public becomes more appealing… And businesses will make their own calculations - it must be remembered that the CBD has a whole bunch of crowds… ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/70 "2013-09-25T01:18:01Z")
Bikers are only a minor annoyance, especially compared to motorcyclists. Bikers have a better self-preservation instinct and therefore don’t tend to weave in and out of traffic, pass cars in the same lane, and the other insane things I see motorcyclists doing to try to get themselves killed on a regular basis. And bikers, along with scooters and pedestrians and horses, are banned from most of the highways I drive on, so that lessons how often I even deal with them. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/71 "2013-09-25T04:52:21Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > yes it does - if you must pay $5 to drive into town, vs $1.80 for public transport, of course Public becomes more appealing… > > And businesses will make their own calculations - it must be remembered that the CBD has a whole bunch of crowds… I’m thinking it’s more like a choice between a hand shake and a kick in the ass. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/72 "2013-09-25T05:25:53Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > yes it does - if you must pay $5 to drive into town, vs $1.80 for public transport, of course Public becomes more appealing… > > And businesses will make their own calculations - it must be remembered that the CBD has a whole bunch of crowds… My personal take is that public transportation should be rolled into city taxes, so riders of buses and trains ride for free - the ultimate encouragement. Might even save money, as a lot of the cost of transit is probably people and equipment for collecting fares. However, I still don’t think you’d get a lot of people out of their cars. The cost savings doesn’t take into account the emotional toll taken by dealing with The Public. It’s worth the extra money to most people to avoid that. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/73 "2013-09-25T13:43:42Z")
I live in the States but just got back for a three week vacation in Germany. I am not a bike rider in the US but my Wife is. We rented bikes in Munich. Road around all day. It was amazing. The bike lanes where VERY clearly marked as well as pedestrian lanes. Cars where very respectful of bikes and everything went off without a hitch. The thing is though; all the bikes and pedestrians too, obeyed the traffic signals and rules of the road. Pedestrians did not jay walk even if the road was clear. Bike riders would even signal their intention to turn. I was quite astonished. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/74 "2013-09-27T17:06:18Z")
I cycle a lot in a place famous for killing cyclists. Of the 20 or so fatal accidents that have occurred this year, 3/4 were involving what I call DUI cyclists and were the cyclist’s fault. The remainder were skilled cyclists killed at the hands of DUI drivers or the distracted. NOTHING is ever black and white. When I ride, 99.999999% of drivers are just fine. Every so often, there is just some swine in a car. Most cyclists are pretty decent, but sometimes there is a swine on a bike. Short answer…both cyclists and drivers can screw up. ---
**Author:** ![Bike\_Rider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Bike\_Rider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bike_Rider)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/75 "2013-09-27T20:25:28Z")
I would comment but it’d be hard to claim impartiality with a username like mine. ---
**Author:** ![biqu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@biqu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/biqu)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/76 "2013-09-27T21:23:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’m thinking it’s more like a choice between a hand shake and a kick in the ass. The different emotional reactions to the massive car entitlement fees (thanks for the correction, **bengangmo** ) depend on the prevailing [Schelling point](http://lesswrong.com/lw/dc7/nash_equilibria_and_schelling_points/) in one’s society or peer group. A frequently-cited example on this board is the tax deduction for couples with dependent children. It could be viewed as a penalty on the childless couples, or a benefit for the procreating couples, depending on whether having children is seen as the baseline behavior or deviant. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/77 "2013-09-27T23:11:27Z")
Car are more than just noisy, stinky and dangerous, they are a detriment to society, the way they insulate their users from the environment and other people. “Here” becomes the non-place between where we were and where we want to be, a location to be quickly bypassed with minimal attention. Bicyclists exist in the here even though they may be going somewhere, a much healthier perspective than getting boxed up in steel and glass, viewing the outside as a blur of motion. The overall impact of motor vehicles is far greater than what their monetary cost to the owner reflects, and we continue to subsidize our addiction to these things because they are “the freedom machine” (as long as you can find a parking place when you do get to where you want to be). ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/78 "2013-09-28T00:48:13Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Car are more than just noisy, stinky and dangerous, they are a detriment to society, the way they insulate their users from the environment and other people. “Here” becomes the non-place between where we were and where we want to be, a location to be quickly bypassed with minimal attention. Bicyclists exist in the here even though they may be going somewhere, a much healthier perspective than getting boxed up in steel and glass, viewing the outside as a blur of motion. The overall impact of motor vehicles is far greater than what their monetary cost to the owner reflects, and we continue to subsidize our addiction to these things because they are “the freedom machine” (as long as you can find a parking place when you do get to where you want to be). You also get rained-on, with bikes. And they don’t do too well on ice. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/79 "2013-09-28T02:49:20Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > You also get rained-on, with bikes. > And they don’t do too well on ice. Yeah, well, cars are pretty darn sucky on ice as well. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954/80 "2013-09-28T04:25:24Z")
> [@biqu](#): > > The different emotional reactions to the massive car entitlement fees (thanks for the correction, **bengangmo** ) depend on the prevailing [Schelling point](http://lesswrong.com/lw/dc7/nash_equilibria_and_schelling_points/) in one’s society or peer group. A frequently-cited example on this board is the tax deduction for couples with dependent children. It could be viewed as a penalty on the childless couples, or a benefit for the procreating couples, depending on whether having children is seen as the baseline behavior or deviant. Very good insight, and your observation goes a long way to explaining why motorist get mad as hell, when they see cyclists. A substantial percentage share a perception that cyclists are morally equivalent to tax dodgers who also claim welfare payments. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bike-riders-are-they-a-pain-in-the-ass-or-are-motorists-too-damn-impatient/668954.md?page=5)