# Bilbo's toast... or was it an insult? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 26, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120 "2010-07-26T23:27:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Anonymous\_Coward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@Anonymous\_Coward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anonymous_Coward)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120/41 "2010-07-27T16:49:02Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > > [@Anonymous\_Coward](#): > > > > > [@Oy](#): > > > > > > So who was the greatest of the hobbits? > > > > Bilbo was the greatest little hobbit of them all according to Mr Nimoy, although the qualifier “little” is worrisome. Who was smaller, Frodo or Bilbo? > > I thought the song said “bravest” little hobbit of them all. I blame Youtube! ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120/42 "2010-07-27T16:59:55Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > And the only reason the Charge of the Rohirrim is not the greatest goddamn cinematic moment ever is that the Sacrifice of Boromir already holds that title. Ah. I can accept that. I feel validated. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120/43 "2010-07-27T17:11:41Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > It’s a comment on Bilbo’s capacity, not their merit. It’s not _insulting_ for someone to not like you. When somebody says _“I don’t like you”_ it’s virtually always intended to mean _“You’re not likable”_ rather than _“I lack sufficient capacity for affection.”_ ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120/44 "2010-07-27T17:30:15Z")
OK, now this is stuck in my head. “I do not like you half as well as you deserve” could also intimate [I like you twice as well as you deserve.] i.e., he ciould be saying “I am a generous and caring individual, who could like you less than you deserve, but actually likes you mroe than you deserve.” and the thing is, if you hold Bilbo in high esteem, you will assume well, and therefore be complimented. If you hold Bilbo in low assume, you will assume maliciousness, and be insulted. It just works on so many levels! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120/45 "2010-07-27T17:31:50Z")
A thought which just occurred to me: Do we necessarily know that the “more than half of you” and “less than half of you” are complementary? Might some folks be in both of those categories, or neither? As to which hobbit was greatest, or the greatest hero, certainly in the eyes of the Shire that would be Merry and Pippin (I’m not sure which of those two specifically, but they’re close). Not only did they play the most active part in the Battle of Bywater (which is, after all, the most heroic thing most of the Shire-folk would know about), but they were also the closest thing the Shire has to nobility. The Tooks were by far the most important family in the Shire proper, and likewise the Brandybucks in Buckland, and Pippin and Merry were the scions and heirs of those families. ---
**Author:** ![tr0psn4j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@tr0psn4j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tr0psn4j)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120/46 "2010-07-27T17:31:57Z")
I have no idea what you guys are talking about. Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin all lacked the hobbit-sense needed to be a truly great hobbit. They were a disgrace to The Shire! ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120/47 "2010-07-27T17:53:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@spark240](#): > > > > It’s a comment on Bilbo’s capacity, not their merit. It’s not _insulting_ for someone to not like you. > > When somebody says _“I don’t like you”_ it’s virtually always intended to mean _“You’re not likable”_ rather than _“I lack sufficient capacity for affection.”_ Being subjective, _liking_ is always a function of the liker, rather than the liked. Bilbo acknowledges this. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120/48 "2010-07-27T18:36:11Z")
Forget greatest and bravest hobbit. Who is the most famousest hobbit of all? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120/49 "2010-07-27T18:41:09Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > Forget greatest and bravest hobbit. Who is the most famousest hobbit of all? Smeagal! Smeagal! He’s our Man! (err…) If he can’t do it, nobody can! ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120/50 "2010-07-27T18:59:15Z")
Dude, he totally smoked them! That was a thinly-veiled insult and they said it word-for-word in the movie, it was awesome! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120/51 "2010-07-27T19:15:34Z")
By the way, I did say this to my guests at my own 33rd birthday party, this past spring. Unfortunately, it was too cold to go barefoot, but I did give out presents. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120/52 "2010-07-27T23:32:26Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > It’s not you; it’s me. LOL. I wish I’d written that. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120/53 "2010-07-27T23:50:56Z")
“I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve” is ambiguous. It could mean “I like less than half of you _only_ half as well as you deserve.” (In other words, there is a small fraction of the crowd who he likes half as much as he should.) Or it could mean “I like less than half of you _even_ half as well as you deserve.” (In other words, there is a majority of the crowd whom Bilbo should like at least twice as much as he does–but he doesn’t.) There are several other possible meanings, but those are the two most prominent to my mind. I think the second one is intended, but I’m having a hard time seeing how to explain why. Parallel constructions are not ending up making it easy to illustrate. As to whether it’s an insult, I think it is. On both readings, there is a group which Bilbo is saying he doesn’t like very much. Granted he also says he _should_ like them more, but would you feel complimented if someone told you “I ought to like you more, but I just don’t”? By saying what he said in such a puzzling way, he makes it even more insulting–refusing to treat them with the respect we generally show our interlocutors by being as clear as we can with them. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120/54 "2010-07-28T02:23:30Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I think the second one is intended, but I’m having a hard time seeing how to explain why. It’s the standard usage in British English. It didn’t occur to me that any other meaning was used. > [@](#): > > As to whether it’s an insult, I think it is. It’s what is called a backhanded compliment, that is its both complimentary and insulting at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120/55 "2010-07-28T02:42:45Z")
I still don’t see that it is necessarily an insult, rather an admission of failure. If I walked up to you and said “I don’t know you as well as I would like to, and I don’t like you as much as you deserve”, would you consider that a back-handed insult? ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120/56 "2010-07-28T12:18:59Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I still don’t see that it is necessarily an insult, rather an admission of failure. > > If I walked up to you and said “I don’t know you as well as I would like to, and I don’t like you as much as you deserve”, would you consider that a back-handed insult? Only if you didn’t feed me, give me a present, then disappear. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120/57 "2010-07-28T13:58:17Z")
Some people are so demanding. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120/58 "2010-07-28T16:30:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > By the way, I did say this to my guests at my own 33rd birthday party, this past spring. Unfortunately, it was too cold to go barefoot, but I did give out presents. Really? I’ve always thought that if someone made that toast when I was present, I’d stand up and yell, “Oh yeah? Well the jerk store called, and they’re running out of you!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilbos-toast-or-was-it-an-insult/548120.md?page=2)