# Bilingual Education **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2001, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054 "2001-11-24T19:45:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KwikStah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47c2d/32.png) [@KwikStah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KwikStah)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2001, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/1 "2001-11-24T19:45:40Z")
Which works better in educating language minority students, bilingual education or English immersion? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2001, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/2 "2001-11-24T20:48:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KwikStah \* > \*\*Which works better in educating language minority students, bilingual education or English immersion? \*\* English immersion works better. A child immersed in a new language picks it up in no time. My father came to the US from Poland in 1920 at age 10. Fortunately, bilingual education hadn’t been devised yet. He was a good student and graduated high school with his class. He read English perfectly, and spoke without an accent. All the research has shown that bilingual education hampers children from learning English, and it doesn’t even help them in other courses. This practice has done incalculable harm to the Hispanic community in America. Now that California has made the change, educators who formerly supported BE are coming out against it. There was an article about one such person in the NY Times Magazine a year or two ago. Part of the problem is that bilingual education is done for more the benefit of the bilingual educators than for the children. For example, before the California voters threw it out, there were cases of American-born children from Hispanic families being forced into bilingual education over their parents’ objections. It’s striking and sad that a program this unsucessful is still supported by much of the education establishment and by many politicians. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2001, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/3 "2001-11-24T21:12:02Z")
**december:** _English immersion works better. A child immersed in a new language picks it up in no time._ Very, very overstated. Mastering a second language for academic purposes, even in childhood when language learning is much easier, takes months or years, not “no time”. _My father came to the US from Poland in 1920 at age 10. Fortunately, bilingual education hadn’t been devised yet. He was a good student and graduated high school with his class. He read English perfectly, and spoke without an accent._ If your father was already literate in his primary language and had a decent level of education for his age group, he was in a much better position for immersion learning than many of today’s non-English-speaking students are. Immersion works better for many students, especially those who have some educational advantages already, but that doesn’t mean that bilingual ed is never a better solution. _All the research has shown that bilingual education hampers children from learning English, and it doesn’t even help them in other courses._ Wrong. True, there has been a lot of bad bilingual education in this country, and there has been a lot of bad legislation about it, but it is completely nuts to claim that “ **all** the research” is conclusively against it. A more balanced presentation of the pros and cons, for example, is [this article.](http://gopher.ael.org/~eric/digests/edorc968.html) _It’s striking and sad that a program this unsucessful is still supported by much of the education establishment and by many politicians._ Here, as in many cases, **december** sets up an illusory picture in which “all the research” unequivocally supports one conclusion, and explains away the opposition to it by stating or insinuating that the opponents must be unscrupulous, self-serving, or just plain stupid members of the educational or political establishment, whom we all know you can’t trust. :rolleyes: Actually, of course, the reality is a lot more complicated than that. There isn’t really a simple answer to the question of which form of education is better—you have to ask, better for which students? better at doing what? better under what circumstances? Certainly, it’s not true that “all the research” points to one conclusion. As the above-linked article notes, > [@](#): > > t is sometimes claimed that research does not support the efficacy of bilingual education. Its harshest critics, however (e.g., Rossell & Baker, 1996), do not claim that bilingual education does not work; instead, they claim there is little evidence that it is superior to all-English programs. Nevertheless, the evidence used against bilingual education is not convincing. One major problem is in labeling. Several critics, for example, have claimed that English immersion programs in El Paso and McAllen, Texas, were shown to be superior to bilingual education. In each case, however, programs labeled immersion were really bilingual education, with a substantial part of the day taught in the primary language. In another study, Gersten (1985) claimed that all-English immersion was better than bilingual education. However, the sample size was small and the duration of the study was short; also, no description of “bilingual education” was provided. For a detailed discussion, see Krashen (1996). > > On the other hand, a vast number of other studies have shown that bilingual education is effective, with children in well-designed programs acquiring academic English at least as well and often better than children in all-English programs (Cummins, 1989; Krashen, 1996; Willig, 1985). ---
**Author:** ![Erasticity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3e96dc/32.png) [@Erasticity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erasticity)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2001, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/4 "2001-11-25T02:21:39Z")
I must partially disagree with at least a portion of the link provided by Kimstu: ". Literacy developed in the primary language transfers to the second language. The reason is simple: Because we learn to read by reading that is, by making sense of what is on the page (Smith, 1994) it is easier to learn to read in a language we understand. Once we can read in one language, we can read in general. " Not quite. I am an avid reader in my native language. I read very well in english (Native language) and I tend to believe that I express myself well. I began learning German at the age of 25 in college. I didn’t get good at even speaking until I was completely immersed in the culture (Work in a German firm with Only German speaking collegues) I can now speak with intelligibility, and read fairly accuratly,but I still can’t write well. It’s got to do with differences in language structure. Now picture someone coming from a country where the alphabet isn’t even the same (Japan or Turkey for example) no reference point at all. Well done Bi-ED would probably work well but it doesn’t seem to be effectivly implemented very often so until it is, stick with what ever works on a case by case basis, I say. Same token: A friends child (German) went to the US at the age of 12. He’s 16 now. He left here speaking not a word of english and understanding about the same amount. He moved to Texas and the only Bi ED was, naturally in spanish so he got the Immersion treatment (Boiled!!) Now, 4 years later he speaks english better than german. – However, he did have a basis in native language instruction but was a lousy student in Germany. In Texas he became a A - B student as opposed to a D - F student in his Native language. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2001, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/5 "2001-11-25T03:00:21Z")
**Erasticity:** _Not quite. I am an avid reader in my native language. I read very well in english (Native language) and I tend to believe that I express myself well. I began learning German at the age of 25 in college. I didn’t get good at even speaking until I was completely immersed in the culture (Work in a German firm with Only German speaking collegues)_ Fine, but that doesn’t really say much about the advantages and disadvantages of bilingual education for primary school children. Immersion is indeed a very useful way of acquiring language skills for many people, particularly those (such as adults) who already have written and verbal mastery of another language and who aren’t struggling to keep up with knowledge-acquisition requirements at the same time. That doesn’t mean that there’s no use for bilingual education. _Same token: A friends child (German) went to the US at the age of 12. He’s 16 now. He left here speaking not a word of english and understanding about the same amount. He moved to Texas and the only Bi ED was, naturally in spanish so he got the Immersion treatment (Boiled!!) Now, 4 years later he speaks english better than german._ Good; again, as somebody who was already literate in his native language and had some solid educational attainments to start with (and it’s generally true that academic standards are more rigorous in Germany than in the US, although I hope that that’s not the sole reason for his grades getting better in the States!), he’s one of the students that immersion typically works very well for. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2001, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/6 "2001-11-25T04:55:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kimstu \*Mastering a second language for academic purposes, even in childhood when language learning is much easier, takes months or years, not “no time”. “No time” is a figure of speech meaning a short time. Children immersed in a new language can function in that language in a few months. > [@](#): > > True, there has been a lot of bad bilingual education in this country, and there has been a lot of bad legislation about it, This is like the excuse given by all phonies. “The phlogiston didn’t cure your mother’s cancer? That was because you applied it when the moons of Jupiter were in a bad position. Phlogiston is wonderful but it has to be done just right.” > [@](#): > > A more balanced presentation of the pros and cons, for example, is… Who says Stephen Krashen’s paper is balanced? Cite? > [@](#): > > **december** …stating or insinuating that **the opponents must be unscrupulous, self-serving, or just plain stupid members of the educational or political establishment, whom we all know you can’t trust.** :rolleyes: You got it, **Kimstu**. There are also the blind defenders of BE, who are not unlike those who Lenin allegedly called “useful idiots.” (the blind defenders and apologists for the Soviet Union in the Western democracies.) The imitation research done by the educational establishment would be funny, if BE weren’t destroying the lives of millions of immigrant children. > [@](#): > > \*Stephen Krashen \*On the other hand, a vast number of other studies have shown that bilingual education is effective, with children in well-designed programs acquiring academic English at least as well and often better than children in all-English programs (Cummins, 1989; Krashen, 1996; Willig, 1985). Krashen’s citing of his own study doesn’t suggest “a more balanced presentation.” Note the weasel words well-designed. Any time BE fails, Krashen can explain away the failure by claiming that the program must not have been “well-designed.” Bilingual education works in journal articles. It provides publications and papers to present at conferences. It leads to promotions within federal and state departments of education. It provides special teaching and administrative jobs for those involved with it in the schools. The only people it doesn’t work for is the students. We don’t need no stinkin’ education journal articles. Since California gave up BE, a huge number of kids have switched to English immersion. The change is working wonderfully. That’s the reality. Even the NY Times admitted it. Maybe there’s some other world where well-run BE is effective and where well-applied phlogiston cures cancer, but not here on earth. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2001, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/7 "2001-11-25T04:57:58Z")
To address the OP: The Straight Dope, from the NEA. [http://www.nea.org/issues/bilingual/](http://www.nea.org/issues/bilingual/) > [@](#): > > **NEA’s position on bilingual education.** > > NEA supports the right of all the children in America’s public schools to equal educational opportunities. Our resolution states that LEP students must have “available to them programs that address their unique needs and that provide equal opportunity to all students, regardless of their primary language.” Because no single approach is necessarily the answer for every child, schools should evaluate and choose programs that are the most appropriate for their specific students. They should also be sure that their programs have clear goals and are taught by qualified teachers. NEA believes that the needs of the children should come first. Enhancing their learning environments, advancing their academic achievement, and building on their linguistic diversity should be the central goal of the educators and programs that serve them. So, the answer to the question, “What works best?” is, “There is no answer”, or, “It depends.” Hope this helps. Carry on. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![phartizan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba8739/32.png) [@phartizan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phartizan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2001, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/8 "2001-11-25T13:50:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Erasticity \* > **Well done Bi-ED would probably work well but it doesn’t seem to be effectivly implemented very often so until it is, stick with what ever works on a case by case basis, I say.** Hear, hear. Background: my native language is American English; my sister is 3 1/2 years older than I am, and our father was a French prof. On his 1st sabbatical when she was 5, she learned a little, then on the second (7 years later), my father tutored us over the summer, then in the fall sent us to French schools, where we both did all right. I still don’t know whether we’re both language geniuses, or if this would work for everyone. On the one hand, my suspicion is that bilingual ed is what social conservatives fear: making excuses for people instead of demanding that they meet certain standards, and there are indeed a certain number of immigrant children who never seemed to have learned English well. And it’t all very well for Spanish speakers, but what about, say, Cambodian or Ebo or Pashtoon speakers? Where are their teachers going to come from? And then there’s the whole Ebonics can-a-worms. On the other hand, despite all the talk about diversity, there’s immense pressure to assimilate. I know plenty of immigrants who are so intent on fitting in that they don’t speak their native language at home, and so the parents only communicate with their kids in a language they don’t speak all that well, and the kids never learn their “mother tongue”. And for those parents who try to teach their kids the native language, the kids often refuse, wanting to fit in. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2001, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/9 "2001-11-25T14:34:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > Note the weasel words well-designed. Any time BE fails, Krashen can explain away the failure by claiming that the program must not have been “well-designed.” > > \*\* I’ve no opinion on the issue at hand, but this argument doesn’t hold water. I read the quoted article, and the author clearly define what is a “well-designed” BE programm. He can’t state that any BE program failing is a poorly designed one, like in your phlogiston example, since he gives precise criteriums to sort out “well designed” and “poorly designed” programs. So, it’s perfectly possible to test his hypothesis. If a “well-designed” program, as he define it, fails, he’s wrong. If it suceeds, he’s right. And even if 99% of the BE programs turn out to be less efficient than immersion programms, he’s still right, as long as none of them is “well-designed” according to his definition. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2001, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/10 "2001-11-25T19:52:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kimstu \*If your father was already literate in his primary language and had a decent level of education for his age group, he was in a much better position for immersion learning than many of today’s non-English-speaking students are. Immersion works better for many students, especially those who have some educational advantages already, but that doesn’t mean that bilingual ed is never a better solution. > > … as somebody who was already literate in his native language and had some solid educational attainments to start with (and it’s generally true that academic standards are more rigorous in Germany than in the US, although I hope that that’s not the sole reason for his grades getting better in the States!), he’s one of the students that immersion typically works very well for. I take these quotes to mean that BE is superior to immersion for illiterate children. However: [list][_]I don’t buy the assertion. There’s no reason why a child who can’t read shouldn’t be able to quickly speak a new language that she’s immersed in. [_] Most Latin American immigrant chidren of school age _can_ read. My wife did some volunteer work in an impoverished town in Honduras. Even those poor Hondurans had a one-room school house where kids learned to read. (No advanced education was available, but that’s another story.) The proponents of BE foist it on _all_ Hispanic kids, not just the illiterate ones. So, even if **Kimstu’s** assertion is correct, it’s being used to as an excuse to apply the program much more widely. This is an example of the “bait and switch” technique commonly utilized by sleazy used-car salesmen. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/11 "2001-11-26T00:20:21Z")
I’d just like to point out that BE has more of a purpose than simply teaching another language. The idea of BE (as I understand it) is that the day is divided into separate phases. Those phases that are concerned with things like history, math, and science are taught in the native language. The part of the day that is concerned with learning English is done in English. The reason for this is that if you are teaching a kid who doesn’t understand English things like math and science in English instead of his native language then he falls behind in those subjects. BE is a way to prevent that falling behind from occurring. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/12 "2001-11-26T07:55:01Z")
I think **Neurotik** has it right. While English immersion may be good for teaching _English_, it is damn poor at giving kids the rest of the things that they need to learn in order to keep up in school. Imagine if someone suddenly decided that _all_ your classes should be taught in Japanese. You may learn Japanese, but you’d likely fail all your classes- severly limiting your future sucess. It wasn’t these kids decision to move somewhere where they do not know the language. Why should we set them up in a program that could have serious reprecussions for their future just so that we can sleep a little easier knowing that at least they can speak English- like good Americans? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/13 "2001-11-26T14:25:46Z")
The problem with BE is that it may help the student from falling behind in other classes, but they often do not catch up in English. Not being able to speak English in the US is a HUGE disadvantage, much greater than being behind in history or math or science. This is assuming that these kids will remain in the US after they mature. Kids WILL pick up languages through immersion. You must help them along, of course, with some special language help, but coddling them will only cripple them in the future. It doesn’t take all that long to become capable in a new language, especially for children. The months they will spend learning the language will be the most productive months of their education. My philosophy for children is, learn to communicate first, then learn the other stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/14 "2001-11-27T06:58:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cheesesteak \* > The problem with BE is that it may help the student from falling behind in other classes, but they often do not catch up in English. Not being able to speak English in the US is a HUGE disadvantage, much greater than being behind in history or math or science. Well, OK, but I didn’t notice _that_ many people skilled in the English language in the US! 😃 Seriously, I am not sure that there is an answer to this debate, although when I hear the kind of passionate attack **December** is making I become a little wary about the cause. If I may speak as a person who learned English as a third language in Europe starting at the age of 11 or 12 in an International school, there is a lot to be said for immersion (if classes in English from 8:30 to 3:15, mothertongue at home, and other language I had no clue about in the rest of the country counts as immersion). I remember that I often had to ask a girl who spoke my native language for help in catching up during the first months. At the same time, I doubt I would have learned English well or quickly had I been given tutoring in my native language. My father showed me how reading is the best way to pick up a language, and I was on my way. I eventually solved the comprehension problem by copying work en masse from others until I learned enough English to operate properly. Falling behind at that stage in school work is hardly dangerous, since it is fairly easy to catch up. I do agree with **Cheesesteak** that communication is, as always, the most important thing. Immersion may work for most kids, but there are people (including children) who are simply not linguistically gifted. I think it really boils down to the child. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/15 "2001-11-27T13:53:13Z")
**Abe** , you say that your father showed you the value of reading in picking up a language. Do you think the immersion program would have been as successful if your parents (and you) were more or less illiterate when you began the program? ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/16 "2001-11-27T14:42:50Z")
Certainly not as successful, but I probably would have obtained a pretty good grasp of English even had I not picked up reading. Difficult to say… ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2001, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/17 "2001-11-27T15:55:17Z")
**december** : > [@](#): > > I take [**Kimstu** ’s] quotes to mean that BE is superior to immersion for illiterate children. . . . which is funny, because nothing in those quotes – or anything else **Kimstu** has written in this thread, for that matter – even implies as much. > [@](#): > > All the research has shown that bilingual education hampers children from learning English, and it doesn’t even help them in other courses. Please provide a link to “all the research” (or, if you’re willing to back-peddle a bit, some of the research). > [@](#): > > Krashen’s citing of his own study doesn’t suggest “a more balanced presentation.” And researchers aren’t supposed to cite their own research . . . why, exactly? As long as we’re slinging around anecdotes with reckless abandon, I might as well chime in: I grew up and went to school in Hell’s Kitchen which, for those who are unaware, is a largely hispanic Manhattan neighborhood. My good buddy Ed spoke no English at all the first day of K-4. I’m not sure how long he spent in the school’s bilingual ed. program, but I have definate memories of his being fluent in 1st Grade (I went to a different school for K-5, so I don’t know just how quickly he picked it up). For as long as I can remember, he has spoken English perfectly (good grammar, no accent). He was saluditorian (sp?) of our class. Being where we were, I knew (probably) dozens of kids who went through the same program. Many had accents, but all were perfectly fluent. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/18 "2001-11-28T04:19:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by VarlosZ \* > > > [@](#): > > > > All the research has shown that bilingual education hampers children from learning English, and it doesn’t even help them in other courses. > > Please provide a link to “all the research” (or, if you’re willing to back-peddle a bit, some of the research). OK, I was exaggerating. There’s plentyof research on both sides. However, the actual results in Callifornia of discontinuing BE have been dramatically wonderful. You might be able to find the NY Times Magazine article I cited in a library. IIRC it was published 2 or 3 years ago. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Krashen’s citing of his own study doesn’t suggest “a more balanced presentation.” > > And researchers aren’t supposed to cite their own research . . . why, exactly? I didn’t object to Karshen citing his research; I objected to characterizing his article as “balanced.” One would expect a researcher to agree with himself. > [@](#): > > _clairobscur wrote_ If a “well-designed” program, as he define it, fails, he’s wrong. If it suceeds, he’s right. And even if 99% of the BE programs turn out to be less efficient than immersion programms, he’s still right, as long as none of them is “well-designed” according to his definition. You have a point as a matter of logic. However, these articles are used to support public policy decisions. Karshen’s article will be cited as evidence to continue BE. If 99% of BE programs don’t work, then a huge percentage of Hispanic Americans will be semi-illiterate in the language of the country where they live. It’s cold comfort to tell these people that a “well-designed” BE program would have worked. BTW being from a large immigrant family, I’ve seen the limited opportunities available to relatives without good English skills. It’s cruel to be promoting a program that simply isn’t effective. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2002, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/19 "2002-09-05T22:27:13Z")
Can someone define “bilingual” and “immersion” for the purpose of this discussion. Seriously. I’m not sure if English as a Second language programs would be included in bilingual or immersion or if they just haven’t been brought up. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2002, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054/20 "2002-09-06T01:08:07Z")
Well… It seems to be that the need for submersion will vary depending on the age of the person learning, and on the individual’s history of language acquisition. I was raised bilingual and educated trilingual. I had no problem achieving fluency in my third language (French). If that were just I, I’d say I might be a language genius. I am most definitely not a genius in any way, but just as normal as a few hundred people I went to school with who also received bilingual or trilingual schooling with the same positive results. I find that overall our ‘native’ languages have as a result been a little jumbled and as anyone who has read a few of my posts will know, I will often be found wanting in my syntax and grammar, (but then again I’m dyslexic on top of all that). This jumbling of languages is apparently normal for children who are bilingual by initial language acquisition, who often display some strange idiosyncrasies in both languages, but otherwise are just as fluent as a monolingual native speaker in both languages if they are maintained into adulthood. In this [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2108069#post2108069) a while ago in GQ I ventured to provide some views by the expertise on the subject. In that post you shall also find the following links to resources and studies in the field: [‘The acquisition of language by children’](http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/98/23/12874) by Jenny R. Saffran, Ann Senghas, and John C. Trueswel. [’Statistical Learning by 8-Month-Old Infants’](http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/274/5294/1926) by Jenny R. Saffran, Richard N. Aslin, Elissa L. Newport [A study](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1841034&dopt=Abstract) by Newport and Johnson about levels of fluency achieved by native Chinese speakers acquiring English as a second language shows the variance of fluency to be achieved depending on the age when learning starts. [This study](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2920538&dopt=Abstract) by Newport and Jonsson shows that there is an extended period during which the language acquisition capacity is retained to a degree during which the level of immersion will make a certain difference. [This study]([http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/kstansbu/](http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/kstansbu/) psych230/bilinguallanguagesign.pdf) (pdf) is abut bilingual language acquisition and debunks the myth that bilingual language acquisition will result in a lowered language capacity in both languages, while showing the somewhat odd effects I spoke of earlier in others and myself. There are some conflicting views on the matter, this is an [overview of the arguments at hand](http://www.tc.columbia.edu/academic/tesol/Han/GinaLaporta.htm). Sparc [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bilingual-education/95054.md?page=2)