# Bill Clinton's name mud? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [February 15, 2007, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367 "2007-02-15T18:46:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367/1 "2007-02-15T18:46:53Z")
[http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3\_308.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_308.html) > [@](#): > > Not to give anybody ideas, Joe. But assuming Mario and Jesse aren’t available, there’s always (blush) Cecil. I am also obliged to note that Bill did defeat George. But your theory may still hold up, because right now his name is mud. When was this coda added? It seems dated & out of context. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367/2 "2007-02-15T19:32:41Z")
I think the column dates to _l’affaire Lewinsky_, but I may be wrong. I wish the SD Classics and archived columns always bore the date of their first appearance. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367/3 "2007-02-15T21:46:59Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] I think the column dates to _l’affaire Lewinsky_, but I may be wrong. I wish the SD Classics and archived columns always bore the date of their first appearance. [/QUOTE] The Lewinsky affair would put the response in '98 or '99, six or seven years after the column and the letter from Juozas. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367/4 "2007-02-15T21:54:36Z")
[QUOTE=SiXSwordS] The Lewinsky affair would put the response in '98 or '99, six or seven years after the column and the letter from Juozas. [/QUOTE] The column was published right at the height of the Whitewater Scandal, though. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2007, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367/5 "2007-02-15T22:35:10Z")
Ah, yes. Whitewater. Why is that when someone starts talking real estate my mind always turns to oral sex? One question… I can see the original publish date > [@](#): > > 17-Jan-1992 and the imbedded editorial comment > [@](#): > > [Editor’s note: This [letter] was originally written in mid-1992.] but where can you find the publish date of the “second” column? The one with Cecil’s reply to _Juozas_ added on? (I assume it must be late '93 early '94???) ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367/6 "2007-02-16T18:44:13Z")
I usually find that I’m missing the obvious when I can’t figure something like this out, but I just don’t see it. The letter from _Juozas_ obviously came after the column was origianlly run. Cecil’s reply obviously comes after Clinton’s election as President. Whitewater was an issue during the '92 campaign, but Vince Foster didn’t die until '93 and Janet Reno didn’t appoint a special prosecutor until '94. The timeline doesn’t really matter though. There must be some date on the column that I’m missing, because I don’t see it anywhere. I’ve looked [here](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/) and [here](https://securesite.chireader.com/cgi-bin/dopestore/buystuff.bat) and I can’t find it searching for the text “Does the taller…” I can find the column, but no date. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367/7 "2007-02-16T19:38:07Z")
[April 3, 1992](https://securesite.chireader.com/cgi-bin/Archive/abridged2.bat?path=1992/920403/CECIL&search=jesse%20mario%20cecil) ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367/8 "2007-02-16T19:49:58Z")
I do enjoy Cecil’s columns and I do think highly of him as a writer and researcher, but I somehow doubt he can forsee the future. > [@](#): > > I am also obliged to note that Bill did defeat George. [On November 3, Bill Clinton won election as the 42nd President of the United States](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_1992) ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367/9 "2007-02-16T19:55:05Z")
OK. How about this. If you use my link to the archive of _The Reader_, you see the phrase “Not to give anybody ideas, Joe. But if Mario and Jesse have opted out, there’s always (blush) Cecil.” So, that part was included in a column update in the Reader at that time(I assume). The part about “I am also obliged to note that Bill did defeat George. But your theory may still hold up, because right now his name is mud.” must have been added later, on a column appearing on-line, not in the Reader. When did Cecil’s columns first start appearing on-line? ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367/10 "2007-02-16T20:13:43Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] OK. How about this. If you use my link to the archive of _The Reader_, you see the phrase “Not to give anybody ideas, Joe. But if Mario and Jesse have opted out, there’s always (blush) Cecil.” So, that part was included in a column update in the Reader at that time(I assume). The part about “I am also obliged to note that Bill did defeat George. But your theory may still hold up, because right now his name is mud.” must have been added later, on a column appearing on-line, not in the Reader. When did Cecil’s columns first start appearing on-line? [/QUOTE] The column in _Return of the Straight Dope_ (published in 1994) says “Not to give anybody ideas, Joe. But if Mario and Jesse have opted out, there’s always (blush) Cecil. Time having passed, I am also obligated to note that Bill did defeat George. Maybe we could just start calling him Wilhelm.” ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367/11 "2007-02-16T20:57:07Z")
[QUOTE=chorpler] The column in _Return of the Straight Dope_ (published in 1994) says “Not to give anybody ideas, Joe. But if Mario and Jesse have opted out, there’s always (blush) Cecil. Time having passed, I am also obligated to note that Bill did defeat George. Maybe we could just start calling him Wilhelm.” [/QUOTE] Maybe the, “…right now his name is mud.” bit _did_ get added after the Lewinsky affair. That last line seems to change with every reprinting. > [@samclem](#): > > \When did Cecil’s columns first start appearing on-line? An excellent question. The FAQ doesn’t say. Maybe you could use your moderator powers to delve into the issue. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367/12 "2007-02-16T21:04:38Z")
[QUOTE=SiXSwordS] An excellent question. The FAQ doesn’t say. Maybe you could use your moderator powers to delve into the issue. [/QUOTE] Well, I used my human/poster powers to ask this over in ATMB [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8267483#post8267483](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8267483#post8267483) ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367/13 "2007-02-17T20:25:22Z")
So much for human/poster powers… It seems fair to say that the article linked above was amended to include the “…name is mud” dig sometime _after_ publication of Return of the Straight Dope. I can’t imagine Cecil holding back such an incisive jab if it was available. What I can imagine is that the article was reissued again sometime in '98 or '99. Possibly in [the Triumph of the Straight Dope](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Straight-Dope-Ed-Zotti/dp/034542008X/sr=1-4/qid=1171743534/ref=sr_1_4/202-2256681-2873419?ie=UTF8&s=books). All the confusion has arisen no doubt because it was written by Ed Zotti. > [@](#): > > Straight Dope (Paperback) > by Ed Zotti (Author) ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367/14 "2007-02-17T22:20:49Z")
Cecil appears to update his columns online infrequently, whether to add new information or (as in this case) to add a political joke. I vaguely recall one column which had two questions, both of which had a final word which ended with a “ch” sound. The heading of this column had a third joking question, “Is Hilary Clinton a” (intentionally cut off). This was obviously added later, since the column was originally published years before Bill took office. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367/15 "2007-02-19T18:44:31Z")
[QUOTE=mobo85] Cecil appears to update his columns online infrequently, \ [/QUOTE] All the more reason to think that this column was updated, not for the online audience, but for some other, more nefarious reason. I have to wonder whether Cecil _updated_ this column himself at all! ---
**Author:** ![Mandarax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Mandarax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandarax)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367/16 "2007-02-21T05:30:59Z")
[QUOTE=SiXSwordS] Maybe the, “…right now his name is mud.” bit _did_ get added after the Lewinsky affair. That last line seems to change with every reprinting. [/QUOTE] I’d guess that the “his name is mud” comment dates from late '93 or so. Clinton’s first term got off to a very rough start. He was elected with only [43% of the popular vote](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election%2C_1992). There was [don’t ask, don’t tell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Ask%2C_Don%27t_Tell), the [Clinton health care plan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_health_care_plan), a [tax increase](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus_Budget_Reconciliation_Act_of_1993) retroactive to _before_ he became president, [Lani Guinier](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lani_Guinier), and a series of failed [Attorney](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoe_Baird) [General](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimba_Wood) nominees. David Letterman had a [Top Ten Signs You’re Going To Be A One-Term President](http://www.tv.com/late-night-with-david-letterman/show-1809/episode/178000/summary.html) list in June 1993 that included the item, “White House tour guide points at you and says, ‘There goes one term Bubba.’” Clinton didn’t have a lot of defenders in those days. In contrast, there was a post-Lewinski rallying of support. WJC’s name was much more universally Mud in '93 than in '98. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367/17 "2007-02-21T09:03:31Z")
[QUOTE=Mandarax] I’d guess that the “his name is mud” comment dates from late '93 or so. [/QUOTE] Probably not. If so, you’d think it would be included in the 1994 publishing of the book. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2007, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-clintons-name-mud/392367/18 "2007-02-26T19:21:06Z")
[QUOTE=SiXSwordS] What I can imagine is that the article was reissued again sometime in '98 or '99. Possibly in [the Triumph of the Straight Dope](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Straight-Dope-Ed-Zotti/dp/034542008X/sr=1-4/qid=1171743534/ref=sr_1_4/202-2256681-2873419?ie=UTF8&s=books). All the confusion has arisen no doubt because it was written by Ed Zotti. [/QUOTE] In the spirit of admitting when I’m wrong, I was wrong. I just got my copy of “Triumph” and there is no article about taller candidates or Bill Clinton. (There is an oblique reference to Presidential sex scandals, but nothing worth citing.) Also, the Library of Congress webiste and the Chicago Public Library website agree that Cecil Adams is the author with an introduction by Ed Zotti. I don’t know what’s up with [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com), but regardless, I admit I was hasty in accepting their information. I am surprised that no one can detail when the version of the column in question appeared, but I am prepared to admit that it is a non-issue and that no one else gives a rip and that the best means of handling the situation now is through prescription medication and professional guidance. Until the new dosgae kicks in however I would like to speculate that Cecil’s comments could have come before the Return of the Straight Dope. If anyone had complained, it is possible that Ed decided that a less contentious ending was needed and the “Wilhelm” version was substituted.