Bill Cosby attacks some in black community again

The community that can afford to eat at his table, certainly not the ones he’s berating.

The way most loans are granted, by proving your worth and some people will get turned down, but better 50 get a break, than none.

I don’t live near projects anymore, but when I was a kid they sucked, that’s why housing built townhouses and offered low interest loans. They realized that people who actually OWN something are less likely to piss on it or write on the walls. Having a SEVERAL blocks full of trees, flower gardens etc…gave those kids something to look forward to besides a life in the projects…I know it did for me.

And how are they going to well if the elementary school sucks? Better to have some kids do well early on and be an example to the others, than none at all.

Context is your friend.

Well everyone’s so special around here, the way they can fight off temptations and work hard. I would laugh if this wasn’t so freaking sad. Most poor people in this country work, in fact they work very hard. Unfortunately they are sometimes so low down, that no matter how hard they try, they can’t pull themselves up past a certain point. The people that BIll Cosby speaks about, is a minority within a minority.

Still for every wifebeater, there’s some working slob who has to live in the same neighbourhood and send his kid to the same school. …but he wants out, but he can’t do it, not without help.

A safer school, a better skill, a better home will break that cycle, but only if people like Bill Cosby go into those neighbourhoods and help them and not call them names.

That’s exactly what I’m saying, and what’s with the ‘virtual white man’ crap? You know what, I’ve heard Bill’s speech before, coming from others Blacks who’ve made it, and as with Cosby they’re making the speech from somewhere fucking else. It’s a major problem in our community. The ones who do buckle down and improve themselves, too often leave with a ‘see ya’ brother thrown over their shoulder and nary a backward glance. They then sit and engage in this type of shit stirring, while doing absolutely nothing at ground zero.

Cosby is well respected in the community; every black person I know watched his shows, and loves his work. I have no doubt that he could give the same speech in West Oakland, Bay View/Hunters Point or the slum of your choice and his speech would be met with a chorus of Amens. Then he’d at least be practicing what he’s been preaching. To be fair, I have this same opinion on Churches in the community, stop trying to recruit givers for the Sunday collection plate and reach out; then maybe more would listen. Mark Curry (who’s from Oakland) says things like what Cosby has said; the difference is he’s saying it right here a little more than a mile from where I’m typing. I’m not sure if he owns here, but he’s here, and trying to make a difference.

Am I being successful, with my kids I’d say a qualified* yes; I’d also like to think I’ve reached the majority of their friends. I’ve stopped more fights then I can remember, and prevented more than that. I take every opportunity that comes along to try and mentor. Whether that is my talking about going to school, or not doing things to imitate drug dealers, I try. But what’s my outreach maybe 20-30 or so kids. Know what, if I save even one, then I’ve made a difference here. I may never know, it won’t stop me from trying though. But the main point is I’ll be trying right here where they can see someone who gives a fuck.

Is Cos within? Look, I’m not trying to take anything away from him, I’m trying to get a sense of what urban black youths (the folks he’s yelling about, mostly) think of the guy when he’s not yelling at them.

I mean, I remember, quite some time ago now, watching Charlton Heston (an erstwhile hero to an earlier generation - Ten Commandments and all that) on prime-time TV reciting a bleeped-out extract from the Ice-T hardcore rap “Cop Killer”. I liked Ice-T, and though Heston may have had a point, I still laughed my ass off. I just thought he was hilarious. It wasn’t willful defiance. It wasn’t a kind of ironic comeback to authority. I just found this old fart reciting “die, mother[BLEEP]er, die, die, die” to be utterly hilarious.

Kids are idiots, black or white. The best advice of their elders often falls on deaf ears. Even in the early 80s, Eddie Murphy was getting plenty of milage mocking Cos, his purported shuckin’ & jivin’ for Jello, his mugging, his increasing unfunnyness, and, most of all, his alleged call to Murphy to clean up his language.

The irony, of course, is that Murphy is more like Cos now than himself then. But Murphy seems to be in it purely for the buck. I don’t hear any apologies for publically ridiculing the man. And I don’t get the sense that anybody cared, except maybe Cos, and folks of his generation.

I’m Glad Dr. Cosby cares enough to give and speak out. I honestly am. But I have my doubts anybody’s listening except whitey’s like me who are admittedly fascinated by this rare show of intra-racial tension.

Holmes, I’m really not sure what your beef with Cosby really is. Despite your attempts to dismiss his efforts, he has poured an enormous amount of money and personal energy into helping kids get ahead. He was not out screaming at the people stuck in those situations that they were just stupid or just lazy. He was yelling at the people with money who might be able to change the situation, demanding that they insist on accountability from the people they are helping instead of simply writing generic checks to feel-good organizations. (Notice the exact forum in which he was sounding off? He was not telling a room full of rich, white, liberals that black kids needed to be punished (or whatever it seems you are trying to say); he was telling a room full of blacks who have made it that they need to do more than write checks–they need to insist on appropriate responses from the people those checks are supposed to help.

Someone made the typically foolish statement that Jesse Jackson was refraining from bashing white folks. The reality is that Jackson has been saying the same things to black kids for around thirty years. Jackson has been working both sides of the situation, exhorting the black community and chiding the white community. He simply gets a lot more press when he goes after the white side of the situation. (He has, I will fully agree, made some really bone-headed choices in the last few years, defending brawlers and such, but his long-term efforts have always included insisting to blacks that they take responsibility.)

I dunno, I think that he gave the speech in front of people who consider themselves to be the political leaders of the black community indicates he knew exactly who his audience was. They were those political leaders, who would then carry the message back to the community. Maybe he thought they might be persuaded and his speech would encourage pro-activism. At any rate, from where I’m sitting, it seemed rather strategic. He seemed to be shaking up the leadership as much he was the subject-population.

Where I’m sitting, FTR, is a house in Jeffersonville, IN. I’m white, 33, poor by American standards, and a single parent. My initial reaction to seeing clips of the speech on TV was to gasp. “Did he just say that??” I couldn’t believe it and my first reaction was along the lines of Holmes, which is to say I thought that was all good and well for a wealthy black man to say, but what about X,Y,Z,& 1,2,3. But as I thought, the previous paragraph’s thoughts began to occur to me, and I began to be swayed, not because I thought it was the “feel-good” speech of the year, quite the opposite; I thought it was the feel-bad speech of the year. There’s a level of shaming inherent in the speech that we are simply not used to in our post-modernist-absolute-relativity world, and I think that is at the root of what unsettles people about this. The thought occurred to me that it might be a good dose for all of us, no matter our skin color.

But that is not to say that that particular technique will solve all our problems, or that Cosby’s speech will solve all the problems for the black community, but then most of us know that there is no one single solution to any one problem on the list of what ails the society. Thus we can look at Cosby’s speech as one event in many that are designed to affect change, along with whatever is happening off-camera. They don’t nullify each other, and there’s no reason one should detract from the other, IMHO.

Tom, I’m not trying to dismiss his efforts just show the reality of where that effort is focused…it’s not going into those communities that Cosby is railing against and neither is he.

Tom show me something, show me Bill going into these neighbourhoods and being an agent of change and I’ll joint the rah-rah team.

If Cosby had to make a choice, then I think giving resources to a sure thing, like the Black Universities would be the way to go. Only he doesn’t HAVE to make a choice, he could both and pull those diamonds in rough out…in those struggling communities. Instead we have to hope that they somehow stumble into the light on their own and THEN Bill notices them.

Had Cosby gone to one of those communities and asked them what you need, what I and the rest of the upper classes do to help you, and gave his speech I would be cool with him.

At least he would be speaking directly and receiving feedback from real people, and calling them wife beaters to their faces.

I agree completely with Holmes. If you read Cosby’s remarks, except for a few culturally specific references, he’s talking about poor people, not just black people.

The Dr. Laura Schlessinger™ brand “personal responsibility” line many posters are taking is extremely convenient and self-aggrandizing. By blaming the poor for their own problems, we are relieved of responsibility and shown to be so much smarter than they are. What’s the point of society if everyone is left to fend for themselves?

You can’t expect people to know what they don’t know, and then damn them for not knowing it. “But they could do X and Y and work their way up!” Easy for you to say, because you know the way. Instead of blaming them, we need to clearly mark a path they can follow, and help them along the way. It isn’t a golden ladder–it’s a flashlight to lead them out of the darkness. Cosby may mean well, but his rant is little more than balm for privileged people who hate the poor. His words aren’t going to make poor folks wake up and smell the coffee because they don’t have any coffee to begin with.

I’m not Tom and I’m not posting this to stick it to you, it has just come up a number of times and it’s time to start posting cites. So here’s a cite. It’s an AARP article, which addresses his speech along the same lines last month, and which explores his community involvement with regard to education. Some quotes:

($20 million? Come on. That’s impressive.)

Here is an MSNBC article outlining how he volunteered to appear (several times) on the Philadelphia school system’s local-access station and serve as a creative consultant.

I believe someone else has already commented on his support of music, especially jazz, and not just the Herbie Hancock concert.

rah-rah.

I don’t think his target is specifically poor ppl but rather the “don’t give a sh*t” ppl.

If that’s the best answer you can give to presidebt’s copious cites, well then, I think that speaks volumes.

I’m sorry if this post is so long but I’ve been thinking about this for awhile now-- and I have some history and observations I’d like to share, as a black man, as an educator. I invite any scrutiny of my comments.

Black people in America are unaccustomed to hearing intraracial problems within the African-American population in this country aired publicly. You may never have heard a well-known black figure talk PUBLICLY about poor blacks and irresponsible behavior before. We don’t air our dirty laundry. It just doesn’t happen.

Black secular leadership has always been reluctant to do it, although some few members of the black clergy have occassionally preached on it: Dr. Martin Luther King made exactly one sermon I can recall that hit on the same issues Cosby spoke about, and included issues like personal hygiene and grooming, too.

The 1995 Million Man March missed a key opportunity to plainly speak about the need develop good, strong habits in personal responsibilty, self-control and safety. The hosts of that event, Farrakhan’s Nation Of Islam – are so far outside the mainstream of contemporary African-American activism, and their motivations so suspect, as to to make even their long-winded, garbled, vague messages of “atonement” and “pledges” during that gathering rendered almost meaningless.

Within the socioeconomic mores of this nation’s highly secluded black elite – ones with collegiate ties, wealthy estates and political clout going back three or four generations – talking openly and critically about the decisons lower-class blacks make that perpetuate cycles of poverty, irresponsible behavior and violence is verboten, Something That Is Simply Not Done, a situation that author Lawrence Otis Graham frequently mentions in his book, Our Kind Of People. It is a phenomenon of that subculture that goes back at least to Reconstruction, and issue often overlooked by W.E.B. DuBois while he fought for civil activism and dealt with perfuctorily by Booker T. Washington, whose uncommon optimism caused him to write in Up From Slavery

A typical, coded message that harped on Washington’s two biggest sins: blacks avoiding industriousness and acting uncivilized.

The people who break with this tradition of public silence are the ones whom you might least expect to do it. Increasingly, a very few black comedians over the years – folks like Richard Pryor in the 1970s, Cosby in the 80s and Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle and Bernie Mack in the 90s and now-- have offered pointed observations and unveiled criticisms on our people’s own self-destructiveness to nervous black audiences. The initial novelty of hearing these criticisms spoken so openly is fast changing to mixed emotions about who else is listening.

I see what Bill Cosby’s doing now as a part of that mold, this time much more openly – because for a very long time he was silent on the issue (he’s part of that black elite I was talking about) of self-determination and responsibilty among lower-class blacks, too.

If anybody’s earned the right to hector, lecture and publicly shame blacks for irresponsible poverty-related behavior, it’s self-made millionaire, educator, entertainer and philantrophist Cos.

That said, the fact that his message may fall on some deaf ears is irrelevant. A lot of people are listening now. The fact is he HAS started to speak on it, and more power to him for his willingess to speak some ugly truths. I wonder if Oprah will have him on?

Thanks for reading.

Thanks. That was an insightful and informative post. I’m becoming firmer in my resolve that Cosby has done the right thing here. What I find so encouraging about all this is that we’re all listening, and talking, now.

Society cannot make someone attend school and put forth the effort of actually learning while they’re there. Society cannot make someone value their future enough to do what’s necessary to delay child-rearing until one is, at least, out of high school. Society cannot make someone who lives less than a mile away from a university realize that there is something more to life than designer clothes and jewelry and being a “baller.” Society cannot make someone realize that just because they’re poor doesn’t mean that they cannot have a clean, cared-for home.

Society can pressure. Society can guide. Society can ostracize those who don’t conform to the norms. But the decisions to stay in school, to ignore taunts of being an Oreo because you can spell and speak the language as it’s meant to be spoken (and let’s not divolve into another “Ebonics as valid language” debate, eh?), the decisions to keep your pants zipped and your legs shut when you’re only 14 years old, the decision to want something more than ghetto life, to not live in a pigsty, to not run with thugs and hustlers, those are all personal decisions.

You can have people telling you all manner of things you can/should do, you can turn on your TV and see how much better it can be, you can go visit your unusual uncle Roy who went to college when he got out of the army and has a decent job and lives in a nice middle-class neighborhood and think “gee, it’s nice here” but if you don’t make the choice for yourself, no one else is going to do it for you.

How much more clearly does the path need to be marked? (Especially in terms of the binaries: do/do not do/sell drugs, do/do not have babies at age 14, do/do not drop out of school, do/do not have a budget that includes funding for the latest designer clothes and cable television but not for nutritious food or books, etc. ad infinitum.) How much hand-holding is required? What exactly would make the difference?

Am I the only Doper who thinks holmes will remain unimpressed until Mr. Cosby goes on a fourteen-city tour, visiting impoverished neighborhoods with a megaphone to rally the folks there to his way of thinking? 'Cause that’s the only way Cosby can be an “agent of change” which hasn’t been mentioned so far.

No.

Also, slight nitpick (for the thread in general): It’s Spelman, not Spellman. (My wife’s an alumna; otherwise I may not have noticed.)

Actually I had a second post but the hamsters grabbed it and I called it a night, so yea I can see how it looks a bit more terse than the taste of humble pie that it actually was.

I’m glad I was mistaken and wish my googling skills were better, because all I could find was the Spellman monies and that just pissed me off more.

That being said, I think this would have done more good had Cosby gone to those neighbourhoods, showed them that he hadn’t abandoned them, that he knew where they were and what they were capable of…not the blanket statement that this has become.

Are people talking about it? Sure, but and YMMV they aren’t saying, “Bill Cosby’s really telling the irresponsible blacks that they need to do better or the upperclasses to expect more.” They’re saying, “Bill Cosby’s telling those blacks to stop, (insert typical stereotype), because they’re ALL like that; just like I always told you.”

It has the effect of throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I agree with the points that Cosby made, but he has to know that this speech isn’t going to help much. Speeches like Cosby’s really only alienate the people who need help the most. I agree with the posters who said that these things have been said several times before. Does anyone think that these people don’t know that their lifestyle is considered less than ideal? A lot of the people that want something more out of life are all ready making the effort, but others just do not care. They’re happy with their life in the slums and they don’t want to change. Unfortunately, they’re dragging the rest of society down, but this kind of people will exist no matter what we do. We can’t spend time worrying about people who don’t want to change, except to find ways to stop them from spreading their message to new generations.

I hope what this does is get others to reach out to the true target audience, through things like the mentoring that Stuffy and countless others do on a daily basis. His message will be completely pointless it just leads to more talking and finger-pointing among the choir.

As others have said on this thread, the message here is not new. And neither is the dialogue. This past winter, I got into it with my parents about the bad behavior in the “community.” I had taken Cosby’s conservative stance, while my mother (and my father, implicitly) was parading the “internalized oppression” line. I don’t think “internalized oppression”–an academic way of blaming Whitey, albeit indirectly, for negative cultural traits–is a good explanation for the rampant materialism, anti-intellectualism, and irresponsible sexuality among youth. I was able to concede that it can account for some things (like dead-beat fathering), but that even if it accounted for EVERY ill, that doesn’t mean the bad-behaving individual is a weak, choiceless, helpless thing who can’t be villified or coached into self-improvement. I believe this because I know middle-class peers–kids who had backgrounds seemingly very similar to mine–who have run completely afoul. It’s difficult to pin racism on something like that.

My mother is a social activist. She runs a non-profit that assists people who need food. Her line of work puts her in contact with the poorest of the poor–many (if not most) of them black. Their stories are so similar that it’s difficult for my mother (a bleeding heart) to not see a systematic and external force behind their misery. And you know what? I agree with her in a lot of ways, and I don’t have a degree in sociology.

I don’t know what the answer is. The practical, individualistic side of me embraces the “tough love” approach of Cosby, but the compassionate side also knows that black people are still dealing with a terrible legacy of systematic disenfranchisement…it’s not “all” our faults. I think a strategy that balances these two perspectives will be effective.

Eh. Maybe. But anyone who blanketly condemns an entire culture for the behavior of a few probably has a skewed outlook on life anyway-- and that’s the polite way for me to put it. (This is a comment on bigots in a dominating society, btw, not persecuted socioeconomic groups and/or subcultures.)

To the extent this kind of public scolding has any affect at all, Cosby’s probably doing it the most effective way possible: in speeches that are broadcast to wider audiences, before like-minded middle-income blacks and higher who do NOT (as a group) practice the behaviors Cos knows are counterproductive – who although they may not publicly condemn ghetto-fabulous behavior the way the Cos is doing, more than likely secretly agree with him. Hopefully they can be persuaded to vocally agree with him and join in on the condemning of (pardon me) niggerish behavior. This is where I respectfully disagree with you, monstro – because one of the destructive things that has ever been done to perpetuate this cycle is the failure – no, the tacit refusal – of upper-middle class blacks to publicly condemn blacks who act like niggers. I think getting it out in the open is long overdue.

Cos has a better chance of most to get away with it because A) he himself is from the culture he’s condemning and B) anyone who knows his history knows he came from the rough streets of Philly and C) all his life he has worked as the very best kind of integrationist, someone who insists on certain standards of professionalism and character-building from people around him, D) has always been very visible and vocal about the importance of education, producing clean and uplifting entertainment and giving back to the community and E) has backed up his rhetoric with his considerable resources: his wealth, his celebrity, his time.

All that said, it’s easy to pick on the poor. It would be interesting for Cos to ALSO take to task people who could really use a public scolding, who won’t be so silent as the poor to just take it, either: black male professional athletes (mostly NBA players) who have all kinds of societal advantages, including great incomes and fame – yet get into all kinds of trouble because they lack of good jugement and self-discipline on a personal level: the Kobe Bryants, the Mike Tysons, the Latrell Sprewells, the Jerry Stackhouses, Marcus Fizers, Darrell Armstrongs, Allen Iversons and Glenn Robinsons. As a former high school and college athlete, Cos would have a lot of credibility here, too. But that opens up to him talking about his own adulterous affair.

It’s not an easy road to go. We know he can dish it, but could Dr. Cosby take the heat?