Bill Cosby's un-PC speech on values of poor blacks. Truth to power or cheap shot?

Great Debates
61

No other group has reached majority status on out of wedlock births – yet. It’s so prevalent in the black community, as noted in the “monolith” thread, that Hallmark has greeting cards “Fo My Baby Daddy on Father’s Day” in their “Mahoghany” line. Every single study that has ever been done of the topic has confirmed that the lack of an intact, two-parent home and the lack of a mother of sufficient age to be physically, emotionally and financially prepared to properly care for her children are very strong predictors for poverty and for crappy education, and if anything leads to criminal behavior and excessive reliance upon assistance programs, it’s poverty and crappy education. It’s a cycle, and while it’s sad that more white kids are being born out of wedlock, the overall deleterious effect that the problem has on the black community is far worse. It’s adding yet another factor holding us back that we simply do not need.

I’ve both directed and worked in a mentoring program for underprivileged black kids for the last decade. I can assure you that doing so did not garner me any leadership status in the eyes of anyone who wasn’t attached, at least tangentally, to the program. I did not have a public voice. I didn’t have the clout to effect change or even discussion on a grand scale – and the kids in the program were great, but they already knew, to some extent, that there were higher things to aspire to, which is why they were there. They weren’t the ones who needed to get that message.

Sunday. Two services. Just like nearly every Sunday for the last 44 years or so.

Not in the churches I’ve attended. Kind of preaching to the choir, anyway. People who are routinely found in church aren’t the ones, by and large, having a passel of illegitimate children or the ones running the streets or the ones committing crimes.

So long as we’re on our quest for “Proving TeaElle’s Black Cred” I think it’d be, uh, lemme see, last Tuesday.

Jesse Jackson’s credibility on personal responsibility and sexual morality is nil. But yes, I am looking for someone with an extremely high level of visibility and an extremely high level of widespread respect to start telling black people at large – welfare recepients and otherwise – that it is imperative that they start thinking before the humping. I’m looking for someone – who has the personal integrity to make such commentary unhypocritically – to devote themselves to preaching a message of responsibility, education, of setting proper priorities and generally getting our house in order.

Preferably, this would happen without the automatic and utterly irrelevant whining that always goes along, and tends to sound like this:

This isn’t about white “welfare queens.” (Whatever the hell a welfare queen is.) This isn’t about anybody but us. And we aren’t doing what we need to do, and our “leaders” are asleep at the wheel, and I’m sorry if you don’t accept that, or think its overly cynical, or think its more important to talk about other people’s problems than to recognize our own and work to solve them.

62

Per the figures issued by the CDC in December 2003 the black out-of-wedlock birth rate is 68.4% compared to 23.0% for whites. You are correct that this is a growing problem across all race lines. The average for all races has increased from 10.7 to 33.5% since 1970 (white 5.5 to 27.7% - black 37.5 to 68.4%)
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/unmarry.htm

Unfortunately the media does not see a point in covering these success stories (for the most part). Also unfortunately, they will allow Jesse Jackson to use them to grandstand thinking that he is THE “black leader”.

Welfare queens come from all races.

What’s notable is that the attention that Cosby’s address has garnered as compared to the last umpteen of Jackson’s. Sometimes things need to be said and said in a way that gets attention. Jackson is too much like a politician, afraid that something he says will offend someone (when the truth is that maybe that someone needs offending).

63

by TeaElle

Why do people who are exercising good decision-making skills, who are “thinking before the humping”, need to be preached to by a self-appointed (or media-appointed) leader, as if all black people lack decent home-training and need to be led by the hand? I don’t appreciate the insinuation that because I am black, that I therefore need someone to routinely slap me on the wrist for bad things that I happen to NOT be doing. It would nice that any such admonishments be targetted to groups that are, you know, actually doing it. If you look at the statistics, these behaviors are overly represented in low-income populations. This is a class problem. Not a racial one.
And like I said before, it would also be nice if some of these white leaders do the same things you expect of black ones. Not because I’m trying to say there isn’t a problem with a subset of the black population. But because if we expect black leaders to start being moral coaches, then all of our leaders should be held to that same standard. Unless you think there is a difference between a white leader and a black leader. To me, it seems, the former tends to be elected while the latter is not, and yet, ironically enough, it is the so-called black leader that is treated most often as a spokesperson for a whole race of people. Isn’t that weird to you?

pizzabrat has already said it, but I’ll say it again: too many people in this thread are generalizing. At least Bill Cosby was directing his comments to poor blacks that engage in poor behavior. All this “blacks need to do this” and “blacks need to do that” strikes me as condescending and self-righteous. Not to mention over-simplistic. Like he said, it is taking the worst elements of a group and using them to judge the whole.

You don’t have to have a public voice in order to affect change and to be leader. For some irritating reason, it seems the only things a person needs in order to qualify as a Black Leader is a mike to speak into, a stage to stand on, an opinion, and dark skin. When Chris Rock is treated as if he is on the same playing field as Gandhi and Churchhill then this a problem, in my opinion. It bothers me that all the thousands of people who are actively leading and working and bettering their communities–and are offering more than political or comedic sound bites-- are considered unimportant simply because they lack name-recognition. If you serve as a mentor, trust me, you are a leader. And if you are leading by your example and preaching the importance of “thinking before you hump” then you, again, are acting as a leader. Plenty of black leaders are sending positives messages to black kids. If we can recognize that, then we won’t have to put all our hopes and dreams on the backs of media whores.

Of course not, because the ones in true need are not put in contact with leaders like yourself. And let’s face it: Jesse Jackson is probably not going to reach them, either. The answer is NOT to have more black mouthpieces villifying folks and encouraging finger-pointing divisiveness. The answer is to try to promote more outreach activities that serve to foster positivity in communities where there is nothing but negativity.

Um, no. I’m not being overly cynical. I just want to avoid conflating class issues with race. Sorry that I don’t put as much weight on these so-called black leaders that you do. I’m just tired of people treating blacks as if they are some problem that constantly needs fixing and that nobody is trying to fix.

64

I would imagine that one reason WHY Bill Cosby might have more clout than Jackson is that he isn’t just saying things to get publicity-Jackson has become nothing more than a politician.

Bill Cosby means what he says-he doesn’t say one thing and then do something else, or just make meaningless comments designed to make himself popular.

Recently I was watching one of those “Where are they now?” type dealies about former child stars, and a few of the “Cosby Kids” were interviewed. All of them mentioned what a positive influence Cosby was on them, and how he actively encouraged all of them to go on and get a higher education, even with an acting career.

65

I have been trying all afternoon not to pick this nit, but I cannot help myself (the inner higher ed geek in me has won the battle against the part that wants to appear to be a rational person). If a college dean showed Bill Cosby a student’s transcript, that is illegal. It would not be illegal if the student himself brought Bill into the Dean’s office and authorized the release of the transcript, but I would make the claim that the Dean was acting unethically and unprofessionally (although not illegally) if he decided it would be a good idea to wave around the transcript of a student, even with the student’s approval, to an annoyed donor.

If the events transpired as recounted in this anecdote, the school has bigger problems than Bill Cosby being peeved with it.

66

I agree that this is a national problem. My husband is a chronic offender. He says things like

“Honey, leave the cat out”.

Me: “The cat is in.”

Him: “I know. Leave him out.”

Me: “I can’t leave him out if he’s in.”

Him: “Open the door and leave him out.”

Me: “Oh…you mean ‘let’ him out, don’t you?”

Him: “Whatever. You knew what I meant.”

Me: “Well, no…I didn’t.”

Drives me nuts.

And the list is endless.

67

You with the face, of course it is a class problem, more than a race problem. But the truth is that Blacks continue to be over-represented in the lower socioeconomic classes in this country. How is that going to change? Some of the change must come eliminating persistent discrimination and by rectifying inequalities in education and opportunity (the standard liberal view that I still espouse). But some of the change must be cultural from within.

To the degree (whatever degree that is) that poor urban Black culture promotes an anti-intellectualism, it prevents this change from occurring.

To the degree that highly promoted media images perpetuate the paths of Black success as equaling gansta rap or sports and not scientist or CEO or professor, this change is obstructed as well.

It is in this latter case that the Rocks and Cosbys have clout. They can use their bully pulpits to reverse some of these negative stereotypes that have been internalized by certain segments of inner city Black culture today. Cause Black intellectual success stories just don’t get the air time of a rapper or sports star who does drugs or is accused of rape.

Sure there are many anti-intellectual Whites and lousy parents who refuse to push or limit their kids, and lots of negative images for White children to glom on to. But they are diluted by no shortage of positive images to glom on to as well. The positive Black ones are there but they need to shouted about more, held up to the kids more: “You can be like her! You can be like him! Study dammit!” And as a White Jewish guy, it can’t be me doing the shouting; it has to be the Rocks and the Cosbys.

68

I don’t have studies, most of the relevant ones have been cited already anyway, but the mentioning of the very high rates of birth out of wedlock among African-Americans brought something to mind. One of my good friends, since high school, is black. He’s one of the nicest guys you’d ever want to meet. Bright, well-educated, outgoing, good-looking, well-built, and funny. He built his own laser setup and does laser light shows at local clubs and events. He works as a part-time DJ and is active in the local theatre as a technician. He also has sickle-cell anemia and has to go to the hospital about three times a year(on average) for emergency infusions/treatments. At one point we talked about dating, sex, and marriage. He said he was being extremely careful because anyone he got serious with would have to undergo testing to see if they were a carrier for sickle-cell and if so they would have a 50% chance of any children they have suffering from the disease. He was very cautious about committing, especially sexually, to a relationship because of this.

It cost him a tooth.

He had been dating a girl and she wanted to have sex. He told her about the sickle cell issue and that he would rather wait to have sex until they had decided they wanted to get married and had all the testing and such done to minimize the risk of passing along the disease. Plus the lifespan of people with sickle cell is uncertain and he wasn’t ready to commit to a sexual relationship. She told him she didn’t believe him and that he must have been screwing someone else if he didn’t want to screw her. She punched him in the mouth and one of his incisors was broken and later had to be pulled because the root died.

If there is an assumption among young blacks that sex before marriage is the norm(as this young lady certainly assumed) then this is a bad thing. My friend was trying to be a responsible, honest boyfriend, and the bitch busted his chops(literally) for it. If something in the “community” helped create the mindset where waiting until marriage was an “obvious lie” then something is very wrong.

Enjoy,
Steven

69

Yikes. Yeah, I’d say so.

This is another antecdotal story so it doesn’t really signify anything on its own, but I found it kind of sad.

Our family is white, but my sister’s husband is black and of course her kids look mixed. She’s been happily married to this man for, oh, umpteen years. (Her oldest kid is in college already! :eek: )

Anyway, I had a picture of my sister and her kids up on display at my work area. A coworker, (who has two kids from two different black fathers), looked wistfully at this picture and started asking me about my sister. She could not believe that these children were the product of a marriage, and both kids were fathered by the same man, and that this family was intact and together. She was incredulous.

This is just one story, doesn’t mean much by itself, but it was so weird how this coworker found my sister’s situation so incomprehensible.

70

This Village Voice columnist thinks Cosby was making a condescending and elitist lecture on middle class virtues to the have nots.

71

by DSeid

If you read my post you’ll see that I haven’t espoused otherwise. The “within” part is important, though.

A lack of visible intellectuals at home, at school, and in the neighborhood contribute to this anti-intellectualism.

I’m not saying Rock and Cosby are speaking untruthfully and that people don’t listen to them. Cosby’s philanthropy aside, though, they are primarily entertainers. Why should I not be bothered when guys like them are dubbed “black leaders”? They are celebrities and because of that celebrity (and wealth, in Cosby’s case), people listen to them. Chris Rock gets paid to make fun of everyone, and that includes folks with a ghetto mentality. Jim Foxworthy, with his brand of “you might be a redneck” humor, is really no different from Rock. But folks don’t clutch to him as if he is the next Dalai Lama. And no one expects poor whites to suddenly stop their stereotypical ways just because Foxworthy jeers them.

To tell you the truth, I think people love Chris Rock so much because he is not afraid to get up on stage and call people niggers. He is voicing in a humorous way what many people are afraid to even think, which is that some people deserve to be called niggers. Not that I’m hating on him; I think he’s funny. But I never lose sight of the fact that his agenda is to get laughs and make money, and not to uplift black people.

I really don’t care if Rock and Cosby attack the failings of poor blacks. People do stupid shit and the obvious should be pointed out to them. But ranting about how black people do nothing but complain and that “black leaders” basically condone irresponsible actions irritates me. What was the whole Million Man March about? It wasn’t about The Man holding the innocent black man down. It was about personal accountability. So just because Jesse isn’t getting in front of the camera everyday bemoaning how “those low-class blacks make all the rest of us look bad”, doesn’t mean people aren’t trying to address problems.

72

One thing that is clear, though, is that there is a significant current of anti-intellectualism within African-American culture that is having a detrimental effect on economic advancement and that can only be addressed within the Black community.

73

How is that clear when can’t even agree upon the existance of “African-American culture” or the “Black community”? Yes, there’s an anti-intellectual current in American society that naturally affects plenty of blacks, but I don’t see the point of dividing that problem by raciaeaaaaaaaaaaahh… ::collapses to the floor due to the blood lost from wall-bashed head::

74

We can’t even agree on an American culture, pizzabrat. The spazzing out attempts at humor aren’t helping, either. What can be agreed on is that many of the clearest images presented to black Americans are anti-intellectual figures of one form or another (gangsta rappers, sports players, etc.) which probably helps foster, in a family that does not attempt to provide other role models, an anti-intellectual bias in children.

We can, of course, point out that many white families do the same thing in their emphasis of sports over learning and so on. However, TV and news tends to provide a more comprehensive spectrum of role models for kids to aspire towards. We have Bill Gates, Albert Einstein, and other fairly mainstream models for would-be nerds. Name for me one black figure that fits the mould who gets the same kind of air time and teaching emphasis…

They exist, but they don’t seem to sell well.

75

Why won’t Bill Gates and Albert Einstein do? Entertainers and athletes drown out more susbstantial role models to everyone, it just takes knowlegeble parents who care to point guide their children along a desirable life path, not a bunch of needless racial labels and politics. An adult populace that refuses to disproportionately reward entertainers and athletes and are dedicated to pefecting a solid public education system would also be nice.

76

Ideally, in a color-blind society, they would do for rolemodels. I’m sure they have done so for black intellectuals and aspiring business leaders. However, like calls out to like. Albert Einstein didn’t grow up in an environment that makes it easy for your average black kid to connect their upbringing with his, finding the path from present to future greatness. What would resonate so much more to them is a figure who faced many of the same challenges in their eyes, someone they can empathise and transfer dreams into. To your average black urban kid with no family support for academic endeavours, Albert Einstein probably isn’t gonna cut it.

77

Well, what’s your point then? If they’ve worked for some successful blacks, isn’t that enough? If others succumb from taking to heart meaningless entertainment, then what can you do? Calling it that process “black culture” is just going to damn more people to that fate by spreading that expectation across the entire black population.

78

I applaud Bill Cosby for his straightforwardness, regardless of how crass his remarks may have come across.

I have my own pet peeves about certain things, like the homeless. In NYC, the homeless hawkers spew stuff like “nobody deserves to be homeless or hungry.” My opinion is that many of the homeless deserve exactly what they have!

These are the archtype that Cosby rants against. Don’t try to tell him that ALL the poor and underprivileged deserve his support and concern, because they don’t!

People are pretty good at putting their hands in your pockets, telling you how you should be spending your money. Fuck 'em! Spend your hard-earned money any way you please, be it $2 or $2 million.

79

I was telling a friend yesterday that I’m so sick of Americans believing that the poor automatically deserve their station in life. People from other nationalities tend to recognize the driving force of luck behind success or failure. But not us Americans! We love to assume moral character from how much money someone makes.

And why? Because that way we can sit on our highhorse and feel good about ourselves. Like the giant snobs we are.

I disagree with pizzabrat on the existence or non-existence of “black culture”, but I feel his angst when people keep harping on race rather than class. Why should I have to be lectured to about the problems of the “black community” when 1) I don’t need someone to point them out and 2) I am not a part of the problem! It reminds me of what happened to me when I was in grammar school. One day the teacher pulled all of the black kids (all 10 of us) out of the class so that she could yell at how bad-behaving and embarrassing to the “race” we all were. Even though half of us were honor students who hadn’t done anything wrong.

I’ve come to realize that that’s why being black sucks. You either get lectured to about the problems in your “community” like you’re the number one person committing them, or you get singled out as “special” and get patted on the head like a goddamn puppy. And when you get defensive and remind others that black people don’t hold a monopoly on dysfunction, you get told that black people are more dysfunctional and therefore deserve more scorn. It’s almost enough to make me want to toss up my hands and separate from all things black.

80

Come on, you’ve been here long enough that you should realize an ad Hominem attack, which is a logical fallacy and is to be ignored.