# Bill H. You smug S.O.B. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 28, 2000, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180 "2000-07-28T11:15:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CnoteChris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/278dde/32.png) [@CnoteChris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CnoteChris)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/1 "2000-07-28T11:15:48Z")
Quote: From Bill H to Cnote: * * * By the words in your post, it’s clear as a bell that you’re a thief. Look up the word; thievery is not a difficult concept to understand. Now the question is “do you have a shread of remorse?” And again directly from the words in your post, it’s clear as a bell that you don’t. Fortunately, that’s the value of laws. To enforce society’s collective morality on those who don’t display personal morality. I do hope that your lack of morality in this issue doesn’t spill over into lapses with higher consequences to the people around you. * * * _Edit_ From Bill H to Cnote: * * * I just did a search and read your postings on the subject. I must say, they were completely lacking in intellectual content. All very similar to your last post on this thread. Your idea of a strong debate point seems to be the use of the word “fuck”. * * * Maybe you didn’t read my posts close enough. I have more to say than just ‘fuck’. Interestingly enough, I did a little research on you too: Quote: from another post made by Smeghead: * * * BTW, I love my Diamond Rio MP3 player! * * * Bill wrote, Quote: * * * I got one a couple of days ago for my birthday, and I concur. It’s very cool. There are a few things they could’ve made smoother like more internal memory and making the internal and external memories look like one space, but on the whole I really like it. * * * Hmmm. What exactly are you playing on your new MP3 Player Bill? I’ve already discussed my opinion as it pertains to the Napster issue. Despite what you say, I do have more to say than a simple ‘Fuck you’. Instead of posting a fast resonse that usually agree’s with everyone around you, you might want to stick around and actually debate an issue. I haven’t seen that in any of the posts you’ve made so far. I wonder why. As I’ve noticed in this board, and has had it happen to me, people get emotional and wound up in a topic. If my post didn’t fit your intellectual needs, I apologize. Maybe if you added something intelligent to the issue I might feel worse. So far, I haven’t seen you do that. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/2 "2000-07-28T11:26:54Z")
Chris, Mp3 players needn’t necessarily be used to play illegal Mp3’s. Mp3’s are legal so long as you own a copy of the album. And Mp3 player is a device which allows you to create your own mix of music which you own and put it onto a device which is much more compact than a CD player. Napster, on the other hand, is widely used for trading of illegal Mp3’s, for which they’re getting burned big time. Was Bill out of line for some of the things he said about you? Probably. Give us a link, and we’ll decide for ourselves 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CnoteChris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/278dde/32.png) [@CnoteChris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CnoteChris)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/3 "2000-07-28T11:42:22Z")
Spoofe… I understand that MP3’s can be something you already own and are not necessarily taken from Napster, et al. But isn’t the process of putting a CD on your computer in the form of an MP3 the same process Bill seems to abhore so much? ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/4 "2000-07-28T11:53:04Z")
Nope, the process Bill abhore’s so much (as he’s already stated numerous times in the thread that you’re quoting) is when people _glorify_ and _justify_ they’re actions. “It’s not stealing 'cuz a CD only costs, like, ten cents to make.” “It’s not stealing 'cuz the music industry screws the artists.” “It’s not stealing 'cuz Mr. Musician said he likes Napster.” (My personal favorite) “It’s not stealing because I only use the music for sentimental reasons.” See what it’s like? Listening to people constantly try to excuse their own actions that are obviously (and apathetically) against the law can get rather annoying. ---
**Author:** ![CnoteChris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/278dde/32.png) [@CnoteChris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CnoteChris)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/5 "2000-07-28T12:12:08Z")
Spoofe Quote: * * * (My personal favorite) “It’s not stealing because I only use the music for sentimental reasons.” * * * Don’t make me laugh when I’m trying to be angry. Uh.hmm. I’ve read my posts, other posts, a couple dozen times now. I still don’t see the outrage. Is there a differing opinion I should consider? Ya. I think so. But it hasn’t swayed me yet. I personally think there’s a bunch of hypocrites over there saying things they never follow. I don’t march in that band. I say it like I think it. Bill H.- Your an asshole for calling me a thief. I didn’t come after you, why come after me. Is your argument so filmsy you need to personally attack me rather than discuss it? ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/6 "2000-07-28T12:38:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE Bo Diddly \* > \*\*Chris, Mp3 players needn’t necessarily be used to play illegal Mp3’s. Mp3’s are legal so long as you own a copy of the album. And Mp3 player is a device which allows you to create your own mix of music which you own and put it onto a device which is much more compact than a CD player. Napster, on the other hand, is widely used for trading of illegal Mp3’s, for which they’re getting burned big time. > \*\* Spoofey- According to the use act, you cannot take the music out of it’s format. But you **can** make a copy of a CD, onto another CD for personal use. CD----\>MP3, or LP------\>Tape= Illegal CD----\>CD, or Tape-----\>Tape= Legal So, if I understand the law correctly, it **is** , in fact stealing. What’s the bottom line? Fuck that…I’m not going there 😃 -Sam ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/7 "2000-07-28T12:51:16Z")
most of the problems with Bill H are how condescending he is. Thats whats really pissing me off. ---
**Author:** ![techchick68](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@techchick68](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/techchick68)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/8 "2000-07-28T13:04:55Z")
Cnote, This isn’t a bitch, rant or anything, but do you know how to do a vB quote? Um there’s a link up top of a reply page. I recommend you looking into it, it’s very easy. To test it out, head on over to the ATMB and play around a bit. Other than that, I am not involved in this situation. ---
**Author:** ![lunapark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/278dde/32.png) [@lunapark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lunapark)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/9 "2000-07-28T13:41:14Z")
Links!!! How am i supposed to join in the bashing if i don’t have anything to reference?? ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/10 "2000-07-28T13:47:41Z")
After my post [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=32258), you seemed to admit being a thief and a hypocrite (my post is #5, **CnoteChris** is #6). Now you are accusing **Bill H**? picmr ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/11 "2000-07-28T14:02:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GaWd \* > > Spoofey- According to the use act, you cannot take the music out of it’s format. But you **can** make a copy of a CD, onto another CD for personal use. > > CD----\>MP3, or LP------\>Tape= Illegal > CD----\>CD, or Tape-----\>Tape= Legal > > So, if I understand the law correctly, it **is** , in fact stealing. > > What’s the bottom line? Fuck that…I’m not going there 😃 > > -Sam Maybe it was about 10 years ago, but a surcharge was added to the price of blank cassette tapes to cover what the music industry assumed was blatant theft of their products. Of course the same thing probably would not work with mp3’s. If you are making cassette copies, you have the original in hand (no it is not illegal to make a tape copy of a CD you own). On the other hand, mp3’s can be made over the internet, which means that you don’t have to have the original. People come up with all sorts of ways to rationalize it, but it is theft if the artist doesn’t want their music distributed that way. If the artist gives their blessing, then more power to you. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/12 "2000-07-28T15:55:00Z")
I’m carring crap over from the MPSIMS thread that UB closed…would have been easier if he’d moved it but what can you do. First off, Bill H. is being an asshole, he’s condesending and frequently misrepresenting what others have been saying. Probalby not that smartest attitude for someone who has tried to pool the SDMB for potential employees in another thread, you couldn’t pay me enough to be your subordinate. Since he put word into my mouth in order to make himself appear just and moral, I’m gonna stick with this, otherwise I’d rather have stayed in the debate as opposed to the pissing match. Bill H said: > [@](#): > > ## Omniscient wrote quote: > > ## CD’s aren’t in limited supply, and the prices are artificailly high due to the collaboration of the record companies. CD’s cost less than a dollar to make, the artists average about $2 per sale, and the retailer puts on a 10%-30% markup (online vs mall store). > > This line of argument really irks me. It’s just another diversion from the core of the matter. > > I’m not even going to debate the cost, even though you’re just way off and anybody who’s ever had a shread of business experience can see that. I won’t debate that because… > > The manufacturing cost is irrelevant. If it costs nothing to manufacture, hell if there’s a negative cost to manufacture it, it doesn’t rationalize someone stealing it from you. > > If you own something, Omniscient, you can set the price that you are willing to sell it for. It doesn’t matter if it cost you a buck or $5M, you get to set the price. And if I don’t like that price you set, I can negotiate or I can not buy your product. Taking it from you against your will is not legal and it’s not moral. > > And if I do steal it from you then start talking about what it cost you to build it, I’m just playing hand-waving mindgames to drag the conversation away from the real issue. Which is that I have stolen from you. I’m way off, but you’re not going to debate it…gee that’s convenient for you. I’m explaining why I think the Record company is unjust and probably should be sued for anti-trust and anti-competitive business practices, I never said that it justifies or rationaliizes use of Napster. You’re putting words in my mouth, don’t do it. Yes, I can set the price of Omni Co.'s _Bill H. bludgeoning device TM_ at $5 M and sell it if I’d like. It legal and 100% American Capitalism. What I cannot do is collaborate with CnoteChris Inc’s _Bill H. blunt force truama tool TM_ and JohnLarrian’s LLC’s _Bill H. Can of Whoopass TM_ to artificailly maintain our prices at $5 M while preventing yojimbo & son from developing a cheaper version. This is my problem with the record industry. Of course I don’t have the resourses to prove any collaboration, nor do I have the cost overhead stats of the manufactuing process. My opinion is clear, feel free to refute it with facts. I have never said that stealing is the proper recourse against the cartel. It may however be the first step in solving the problem, and the internet looks capable of removing the technology barrier that has allowed the record companies to bilk the public. Certainly a middle ground must be reached, but Napster is getting the ball rolling on the new economies influence on the old record industry. obfusciatrist said: > [@](#): > > Actually, both Bay Area houses and CDs are expensive for the same reason: People are willing to pay the price requested. > > CDs are in fact a rare commodity. Yes, the physical fact of CDs are not rare, they any particular CD is a limited commodity. If you want a Metallica CD, there is only one distributor. If you want a Hole CD there is only one source. > > But you want a better analogy: Prada handbags. There is no physical reason for their scarcity, and the manufacturers markup is huge. Does that make it less wrong to steal them? No, thats an even worse anology. Prada hand bags are painfully over priced. But guess what, you can take the missus to KMart and get her a cheap one for $6. That is capitalism at its best. 2 different business models successfully competeing with different strategies, one offering status and supposedly better product, the other a cheap alternative. CDs however are the only alternative in 90% of cases, the record company’s monopoly artificially sets that price. One point, while many have argued “If the prices are to high, don’t buy them!”. Now CDs of course aren’t a necessity, but its naive to consider them a unnecessary luxury. Most would place music high on their list of priorities for a acceptable quality of life. How do you quantify it, who knows, but its a disticntion that should be mentioned. The problem needs to be solved, Napster might open some eyes. In that regard I support them. I d/l music, I would be willing to pay a reasonable price for it, but MP3 is a degraded format and it lacks any documentation or permanent status. So whats a reasonable price? Maybe a Napster that pays the artist a small fee per d/l of a song, and recoups the cost from ad banners similar to radio. I however strongly oppose the opinion that if you want music, you must buy the CD from the record company. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/13 "2000-07-28T19:52:00Z")
This is the thread in question ( [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=32389](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=32389) ) Bill likes calling a spade a spade . I use napster I’m a thief , fair enough. Am I as bad as a looter ? I don’t think so. I also have been known to lend or even give people books ( oh my God I hear you all say , what about the poor author ? ) . I have no problem with Bill calling people on what he sees as their reluctance to see what he sees as the truth . It’s when he starts saying things like > [@](#): > > I do hope that your lack of morality in this issue doesn’t spill over into lapses with higher consequences to the people around you that he starts really getting on my wick . As I asked in that thread " I do hope that your level of morality in this issue spills over into the rest of you life ? " yojimbo = thief ( who doesn’t give a fuck if this issue is classed as theft and it’s up to a higher power than yourself to judge me) Bill H = self righteous SOB ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/14 "2000-07-28T20:54:08Z")
Cnote… > [@](#): > > I still don’t see the outrage Y’know, neither do I, actually. While I agree with his “Download illegal Mp3’s, you’re stealing, plain and simple” idea, I really don’t understand this need of his to be constantly pushing the issue. It’s like he was running for office or something. Which reminds me… everyone, vote Diddly in '00! ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/15 "2000-07-28T21:03:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, I can set the price of Omni Co.'s Bill H. bludgeoning device TM at $5 M and sell it if I’d like. It legal and 100% American Capitalism. What I cannot do is collaborate with CnoteChris Inc’s Bill H. blunt force truama tool TM and JohnLarrian’s LLC’s Bill H. Can of Whoopass TM to artificailly maintain our prices at $5 M while preventing yojimbo & son from developing a cheaper version. This is my problem with the record industry. Of course I don’t have the resourses to prove any collaboration, nor do I have the cost overhead stats of the manufactuing process. My opinion is clear, feel free to refute it with facts. The analogy is untrue anyway. Small labels can sell their CDs for whatever price they want. Fugazi sells their CDs, IIRC, for under $10. Nobody is prevented from developing a cheaper version. Just to give you an idea of the overhead stats, one of my old bands recorded 14 songs for a CD. Recording costs, on 2", 24-track tape, were $25 per hour for 40 hours. Artwork we did ourselves, and pressing 500 copies was in the neighborhood of $1,500. Extrapolate that to better recording facilities, better-paid studio personnel, and many thousands more copies, and you’ll begin to get an idea. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/16 "2000-07-28T21:11:22Z")
Didn’t Satan once post the exact costs for making a CD once? Does someone have the link? (I’d look, but I haven’t the faintest idea what thread title to search for…) Anyway, I just cringe whenever people claim that CD’s only cost a few cents to make… ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/17 "2000-07-28T22:31:44Z")
I have no particular opinion on whether Bill H is a sanctimonious asshole. He may be. I agree with him, however, that trading mp3’s is theft. Is it grand theft? no. Are the record companies poor, helpless victims just trying to make an honest livning? no. Is the profit margin for the average CD reasonable? judgement call. Can individuals look at these and other factors and decide that they are more important factors in etermining action than the practical loss of napster theft? obviously. Is it still theft? yes. Is it justified? not in my opinion. I can justify theft based upon great need and limited opportunity. I cannot justify theft based upon desire and antipathy for the victim. YMMV. BTW, I also give lend and give away books. The difference being, after I do so I no longer am in posession of said book. That is not theft. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/18 "2000-07-28T22:59:39Z")
Yes, I am technically a thief. Yes, I have a fairly strong morality. No, I don’t feel bad about copying mp3’s for which I don’t own a hard copy. I was never going to by the cd anyway, so I’m not costing them money, I am simply listining to something that the maker thinks I should have to pay for. But, How many people have posted to the SDMB from work? How many people have looked at a website that wasn’t business related. I have, and I bet everybody has done it or doesn’t becuase they are afraid of getting caught. But the reality that is stealing too. In fact it is a worse form of stealing becuase your company payed for the bandwidth, and you’re actions use up some of that, creating a tangible cost in dollars for the company,(even if it is only .0001 cent per post). At least my MP3’s don’t cost the author. Breaking the law is only breaking the law, don’t equate that with morality. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/19 "2000-07-28T23:35:50Z")
In any regard. People who are downloading the songs from Napster can’t be called theives. A better analogy would be those who buy something from a homeless person that you know is stolen. You are not the person stealing. You are just supporting the thief. ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180/20 "2000-07-28T23:45:19Z")
Best birthday present I ever got was a stolen skateboard. Not that I skateboard, but I just thought it was funny that somebody went and bought an obviously hot skateboard for me from some guy who wandered into their job. I think it’s still in the shrink-wrap, too… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-h-you-smug-s-o-b/27180.md?page=2)