Bill H. You smug S.O.B.

I’m in work at present ( stealing their bandwidth , they’re paying me to work not to post on the SDMB and using there resourses , I’m going to hell :wink: ) so I don’t have a book on me but every book I’ve ever seen has a small section which tells you that it is prohibited under copyright law to loan the book. Theft maybe not but it is against the law.

My whole problem is a yard-stick used to judge people morality. Don’t fucking judge me coz I rip off a bit of music now and then. Someday somebody with a higher code than yourself may come along and start judging you.

Call a spade a spade by all means BUT lay off on the crusade.

Since so many express such great concern over the artists who are getting screwed by the Big Evil Record Companies, therefore justifying putting one over on said Big Evil Record Companies, can anyone explain how ensuring that the artists sees zero percent of their rightful cut rather than the percentage they would have received from the CD sale helps the artist? Is that something like destroying the village in order to save it?

Hey, nobody ever said there was anything wrong with destroying a villiage to save it! :wink:

I do think that people would support the artists more if there was a direct connection. Hell, if my $15 would go straight to the Bogmen, I would buy a new one to replace my lost copy instead of burning it off a friend. Course, how one would go about setting such a system up…ehh, you’re smart, you figure it out :smiley:

Wolfman is right, a very large percent of the people on line are “stealing” company time and resources. At some companies you can get fired for doing so. Many people who are horrified at the thought of downloading a MP3 file, think nothing of making a few personal xerox copies at work, or spending company time on personal phone calls, using company vehicles for personal use. The simple fact is that most of us are engaged in minor theivery every day without even thinking about it. How many upright citizens who will not download a MP3 file will take a chance on stealing your life by driving under the influence. IMHO that is a FAR greater crime.

Ummm no. It actually says “This book is sold subject to the condition that it shall not, by way of trade or otherwise be lent, resold, hired out or otherwise circulated without the publisher’s prior consent in any form of binding or cover other than that in which it is published and without a similar condition including this condition being imposed on the subsequent purchaser”

this is to protect the writer and publisher against returns. In the book trade if a book doesn’t sell then the bookseller returns the cover for a refund in some cases saving on the cost of shipping. It is perfectly legal to lend books. In most countries writers receive a payment yearly which compensates them for the loss of royalties because their books are in libraries

primaflora

Primaflora , if you are correct , I stand corrected .

I always thought the **lent ** bit was about the general public but I’m no expert . In other words don’t lend this book without prior consent ( which libraries have ) .

Anyway it is another law that I break or don’t if your right quite frequently .

I’ve been staying relatively quite lately because I’m tired of trying to defend my postion on things I’ve said in other threads.

But I should say someting considering I started this thred.

People around here have an amazing ability not to read previous posts. As I’ve stated numerious times before… Ahh, what the Hell, you can look it up for yourself.

Tech: Yes I know about the vB code. It was easier to cut and paste, considering I was cross, multi-linking, quotes.

Spoofe: As myself and GaWd pointed out, transfering a CD to the computer (Read- MP3) is illegal. A point I think Bill H is afraid to address.

I wait with baited breath Bill.

Then again, Bill, maybe I should wait for tomorrow when you log on at work and surf these boards on company time to get a response.

Well, here’s the thing: I’m not interested in debating whether Bill is a jerk. I don’t intend to respond to any comments about my personality. Flame away to your hearts content.

I do want to point out that this whole thread is yet another diversion from the core of the issue.

Bill: Taking something that isn’t yours is stealing.
Chris: Yeah, well you’re a jerk!
Others: High and mighty too!

If you’re not stealing anything, then my post shouldn’t have offended you. And calling me names doesn’t justify theft.

SPOOFE Bo Diddly pretty much summed up my position when he said

I also appreciate Spiritus Mundi’s comments,

I concur that it’s not grand theft.
Now, an apology:

The line to CnoteChris, “I do hope that your lack of morality in this issue doesn’t spill over into lapses with higher consequences to the people around you.”, implying that because you stole $2 songs, perhaps you mugged little old ladies, was out of line. I am sorry.
Oh and I do own a Rio, I do enjoy it, and I don’t use it to play stolen music.

You know, I’ve kept out of this debate, mostly because Napster really isn’t a big part of my life. I use MP3s, but mostly from my own CDs. And I do have a few rare MP3s of music that is out-of-print and impossible to find on CD. (Can’t feel bad about that - I would buy the CD in a heartbeat if it existed.) I also have a MP3 site, of rare, out-of-print music. (I collect film music - I have a huge CD collection, but there definitely is a film music subculture out there!) I have lots of the music on RealAudio, and MP3s of the rarer stuff.

Anyway, I don’t mind sharing MP3s of music that people cannot find anywhere else. I do mind when people email me, expecting me to send them an MP3 of music that is readily available on CD. They say “I am too cheap to buy it”. Or they act as if the ONLY way they can get it is by asking me. I never send them the MP3. Takes too long to upload, I;ve got better things to do. I also think - “if they are so desperate to get it, they need to get their ass down to Tower Records and buy it!”

Anyway, I ramble. My point is - Napster may be great, and things like Napster are kinda what the Internet is about. So I can see that side of things. But I don’t understand so many of you getting so bent out of shape because maybe someone else thinks you are stealing, when, well, technically, you are. No, no one is saying you are Evil, but technically, you are “stealing”. Just like technically, I shouldn’t be sharing my MP3s of rare CDs.

Bill H. may be coming on too strong, but I think the thing that is hitting a nerve is that he has a point. And God Forbid anyone rain on your parade, and remind you of that.

And I also don’t get why you act so bent out of shape because the steady flow of free goodies that you don’t own and are not legally entitled to might be harder to come by. Oh well. I obviously just don’t get it.

Thank you, yosemitebabe.

No, it is not. As has been stated, you are allowed to convert CD tracks to Mp3 so long as you continue to own the CD. This falls under the “archival purposes” aspect of copyright laws. It is illegal to copy a CD, then give away the CD, which is essentially the same as pirating.

Yosemitebabe…

Exactly, exactly, exactly. Sure, it’s against the law, but it doesn’t mean you’re a bad person. I think everyone agrees that everyone does a no-no every now and then.

Have your Napster, that’s what I say. In fact, please. It’s a useful tool. Just don’t go around pretending to be liberating the American people from the cruel, evil grips of the hearless record companies :slight_smile:

However, you use it to play music all the same. As has been mentioned before, your breaking the law Bill. How do you explain yourself?

Quote:


Bill: Taking something that isn’t yours is stealing.
Chris: Yeah, well you’re a jerk!
Others: High and mighty too!


Bill, you have a tendency to put words in people’s mouth’s.

Did I ever call you a jerk? No, I didn’t.

Do I think your a Jerk? The way you argued that last thread, I think it’s open for debate.

You’re a fool to think I would argue the above quote as you think I did. If you read my posts, you’d see I never said that to you or anyone else.

I was arguing the consequences of the court ruling as it pertained to the Napster issue. That is, ownership of original speech/music has taken on a whole new role now.

I also argued that people break petty laws every day of the week. Hell, I did 80mph in a 55mph zone on the freeway yesterday. I wasn’t alone either. Do I regret it, No. Did I break the law? Yes. Did I toss and turn in my sheets worrying about? Slept pretty damn good, thank you very much.

Bill, get off your righteous high horse and admidt to being guilty in some form or another to breaking the law which you criticize me on oh so justly. You know you have. Just admidt it and try to argue a reason behind why you did it and you’ll soon see the futility behind it.

I don’t excuse my actions, but I don’t try to be the ‘Holy’ one either.

I don’t think you can do the same.

How many times do you need to read the statute.

Spoofe Quote:


… you are allowed to convert CD tracks to Mp3 so long as you continue to own the CD…


Spoofe, you are wrong. It is strictly agaisnt the law to take a CD and turn it into a MP3 for any purpose what-so-ever.

Maybe you can post a site that supports your line of thinking.

Using a device to play music I’ve paid for is legal and ethical.

Well, let’s see, in your very first post, you wrote

Never mind that previous to that post, I didn’t call you (personally) a thief.

Then you opened up a thread called “Bill H. You smug S.O.B”. Where I come from, that stands for “Son of a Bitch.”

In said thread, you wrote “Bill H. - Your an asshole for calling me a thief.”

Look, pal. I hope this pointing out that you never used the word “jerk”, when you did imply it, plus use substantially stronger words is not your idea of logic.

Then I’m a fool, cause I stand by that assertion (that Bill said “people who take things are thieves” and Chris changed the subject by replying “Bill is a jerk!”).

No you weren’t. Please quote one post you made that could be construed as arguing this.

No you didn’t. Please quote one post you made that could be construed as arguing this.

You’re changing the subject. And anyway, I don’t follow the logic. Somehow, your violating speed limits makes it ok for you to steal?

I’ve broken plenty of laws in my life and commited plenty of immoral acts as well. Sometimes I violated multiple laws and morals simultaneously. Do you feel better now? Now, can we get back to the subject at hand? This diversion tactic isn’t changing the facts.

CnoteChris wrote

CnoteChris, maybe you can post a site that supports your line of thinking. To get you started, here’s a link to the statute: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/index.html

Oh, and by the way, words like “strictly” and “what-so-ever” have meaning. They mean that your claim is a key one to folks like the RIAA. Please post even one link showing where the RIAA feels this is theft of their property.

I’ve gotta say, this is a really dumb comparison you’re making here. I paid money for the use of the songs. You didn’t. For you to equate the two and say that I’m a thief is just ridiculous. And again, a diversion. You wave your hands a lot, CnoteChris.

I think the issue of lending books has been made clear. It is not a violation of copyright law.

As to posting from work, etc. These may or may not be violations of individual company policies and therefore may or may not represent misallocation of company resources. Many companies recognize that keeping skilled employees happy is a good thing and allow company resources to be used for personal benefit so long as company needs are not infringed. Bandwidth, faxes and copying machines are examples of this, as are company cars, laptops and second phone lines.

A good guide is whether one feels compelled to hide their actions from their bosses.

Perhaps a similar guide should be used for MP3s. Many artists do not object to having their music distributed widely and freely to their fans (Phish, Grateful Dead, etc.). If a site like napster trafficed in only work by such artists then I would see litle reason to object. However, when an artist complains that he is being denied income from the product of his work, I have litle sympathy for the argument that “I wouldn’t have bought it as a CD anyway”. Fine. Then don’t listen to it. If I tuck a comic book under my shirt and walk out of the store, justifying my theft by saying that I never would have paid for it anyway seems a bizarre ethical position.

Now, lest I be misunderstood. I have never claimed to be ethically pure. Far from it. That does not invalidate any ethical stance I might take. It also does not justify any unethical behavior on the part of others (or myself). Recognized failures should be inspiration for improvement, not reasons for surrender.

Bill’s comments themselves didn’t offend me. I know, downloading MP3s is theft. Everybody knows that. You know what? I don’t care. And I don’t care that smoking pot is illegal: I do that too. And if I were living in one of those square states where sodomy is illegal, I’d do that too.

Law is not ethics.

umm what line of work do you finally intend to end up in Matt? You are a student currently? No matter, just tell me if once you are working, you will be fine with me stealing the fruits of your labour? Hmmmmm?

Oookay let’s say you start a restaurant, just for argument’s sake. Can I come and eat a meal and leave without paying? Everybody knows that is theft but it sits real comfortable with my ethics. And law is not ethics according to you so I should be able to do it.

Or somehow do books and music not count? Artists and writers don’t ethically own the rights to their work because the law is an ass?

primaflora

Oh please.

“Becuase I use Napster that automatically makes me an across the board theif.”

Yeah, right.

On my way back from the grocery store, where, incidentally, I stuffed as much shit down my pants as I could, I knocked over a little old lady and took her purse. She had something I wanted.

Come on people!

I was about to quote my earlier post all up and down this thread. On second thought, forget it. My points have been made and I stick behind them (Well, most of them, see below). I’ll grant you they were not always clear, and most have some anger behind them, but I fail to see where you miss my main point. Or should I say, TWO, points.

“The judges ruling goes far beyond the Napster issue.” That was my first friggin post. And my main point.

Second point: I happen to use Napster and find no problem with that.

TWO issues here!

For now I’ll only focus on Napster, because that’s where you seem to take issue with me.

I never, never intended on buying the music I listen to from Napster in the first place. I do not resell it, I don’t claim it as my own. I do not profit from it in any way, shape, or form. I’m not running a music distribution service over here. If I did, you’d have every right to call me a theif. However, distinction here, it’s for my personal use.

In fact, others have listened and asked, ‘Who is that, anyway?’. ‘Well, its blah blah blah’. ‘Hmmm’. And actually have gone out a bought the album.

What others do does not justify my actions. I know that. But please explain to me how this is different than snapping on the radio and listening to a song. Or hearing a song on the radio and then downloading it. Their (the music industry) the ones who seem to be riding the fence. ‘Here this? listen to how good it is. Watch us promote the shit out of it on MTV and your favortite radio station. Oh what, your downloading it, I’m gonna sue your pants off buddy.’ It seems to me it’s free in both instances.

Am I a Saint? No. Am I public enemy number one? I doubt it. Could Napster be missused and abused? Most definitely. But not by me.

What about that song I downloaded from Napster the other day that I once owned. The CD I bought from the music store got scratched beyond repair and I saw it on Napster. Since I’ve paid my fair share to own the CD, I have every right to download load it, correct? According to your own statements, I do.

I’ve been trying to find a quote in the copyright law that you so helpfully included in your previous post. I felt one massive headache coming on trying to navigate that shit. Subsection 5 article B-4 amendment 2A category 1-F ‘…ownership of said copyright after death or dismemberment’. I’m an ex-bartender Goddamit! I’m not a lawyer.

I took what someone else mentioned, recalled the audio cassette surcharge the music industy added to it, and assumed the poster was right.

For that, I take back my jab at you on your new MP3 player. But, I’ll never know if I’m right or not becuase I’m not about to tackle that site.

There is obviously alot of opinions around here on the Napster issue. There also seems to be quite a bit of grey areas in this issue as well. Hell, the artists themselves can’t seem to agree on it.

I put in my two cents. Got bitched at for calling someone a dimwit and was told to move it to the pit. I did.

You and I will never see eye to eye on this. But that doesn’t mean you can make sweeping accusations about me because of that difference.

I may be wrong, I may be right, I don’t know. And I don’t think you know either.

Finally: I think, and posted accordingly, that the record industry should wake the fuck up and try to profit from this form of exchange rather than suing everyone in site that they seem to think is not paying their fair share.

A number of points. A few distinctions in my argument that others have overlooked. I called you a jerk only after you called me a theif. When all is said and done, you and I are probably closer to an agreement then we really think. I just went about it differently. You went about it with your head in your ass.

I’ve decided to start a Debate that was inspired by this thread. You can find it at “What’s wrong with stealing”