# Bill Kristol's "Independent Candidate" - who will it be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 30, 2016, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048 "2016-05-30T01:25:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/61 "2016-06-01T02:25:01Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I feel sorry for Bill Kristol; he is a patriot who cares about American security and its role in the world, unlike Trump, but he needs to learn to give up. He was a cheerleader for a war that cost thousands of American lives, tens of thousands of Iraqi lives, ruined Iraq, severely damaged America, and enabled the rise of Daesh. Fuck that guy with a chainsaw. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/62 "2016-06-01T02:28:40Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > He was a cheerleader for a war that cost thousands of American lives, tens of thousands of Iraqi lives, ruined Iraq, severely damaged America, and enabled the rise of Daesh. Fuck that guy with a chainsaw. a lot of people cheerled Bush’s war to wag the undog and thus do what his dad didn’t; get re-elected. The media, the oil industry, 9/11 families, you name it. Many Democrats too; you gonna toss them all under the bus? Even for as bad as the Iraq War is, no, its not Vietnam. Or Korea. Or even the Communists in Afghanistan; all those wars costed orders of magnitudes more lives. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/63 "2016-06-01T02:34:33Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > a lot of people cheerled Bush’s war to wag the undog and thus do what his dad didn’t; get re-elected. The media, the oil industry, 9/11 families, you name it. Many Democrats too; you gonna toss them all under the bus? > > Even for as bad as the Iraq War is, no, its not Vietnam. Or Korea. Or even the Communists in Afghanistan; all those wars costed orders of magnitudes more lives. Yeah, they did. They all suck too. Including Hillary, who I am going to vote for because she is orders of magnitude better than Trump. But Kristol was behind this moronic idea since the 90s. And in many ways the Iraq war was more disastrous than Vietnam, even though the casualty count on both sides was lower. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/64 "2016-06-01T02:46:33Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Yeah, they did. They all suck too. Including Hillary, who I am going to vote for because she is orders of magnitude better than Trump. But Kristol was behind this moronic idea since the 90s. And in many ways the Iraq war was more disastrous than Vietnam, even though the casualty count on both sides was lower. Really? Did Iraq result in widespread massive protests all across the country (that amounted to nothing but division)? Did it aggravate tensions with a rival nuclear superpower of equal strength (the USSR was much stronger for its time than Russia/China combined today)? Did the Iraq War divide the country as much as the Vietnam War? And yea, 4,800 is considerably smaller than 58,000 deaths, as are the wounded too. Did as many people have to break the law or bend it (by avoiding a draft) with the Iraq War as with Vietnam? ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/65 "2016-06-01T02:57:35Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > but his ideas are better than Trump OR Bernie. Both Trump and Bernie are isolationists who don’t get that **America must lead the world,** so moral points to Kristol. Begging your pardon, but on what stone tablet brought down from Mt. Sinai by Charlton Heston is THAT written on? ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/66 "2016-06-01T03:05:44Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > Begging your pardon, but on what stone tablet brought down from Mt. Sinai by Charlton Heston is THAT written on? By the one that says that there’s always gonna be a country that wants to lead the world, so better us than China or Russia. Just as the socialist idea that everyone could be made to share evenly failed, so that goes for world affairs. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/67 "2016-06-01T03:12:32Z")
It was just last decade that true conservatives hated everything French. Now they’re gonna put this guy up as a candidate for the presidency? Where’s your Freedom now, America? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/68 "2016-06-01T03:38:17Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > He was a cheerleader for a war that cost thousands of American lives, tens of thousands of Iraqi lives, ruined Iraq, severely damaged America, and enabled the rise of Daesh. Fuck that guy with a chainsaw. Yes, but as noted many did. The problem is Kristol has never met a war he didn’t like. He is a permahawk, which indicates a certain lack of seriousness. Kristol on ISIS: [INDENT][INDENT]What’s the harm of bombing them at least for a few weeks and seeing what happens? I don’t think there’s much in the way of unanticipated side effects that are going to be bad there. [/INDENT][/INDENT] Yeah, [let’s just drop a few bombs and see what happens](http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/08/quote-day-lets-just-drop-few-bombs-and-see-what-happens). Kristol is a clown, far more so than Max Boot or the usual neocon suspects. Reason’s takedown on Bill Kristol (meh): [Before You Read Bill Kristol About 'What to Do in Iraq,' Read Bill Kristol in February 2002 About What to Do in Iraq](http://reason.com/blog/2014/06/16/before-you-read-bill-kristol-about-what) Here’s Bill Kristol’s Feb 2002 testimony on the puppies and rainbows that we would get if we only invade Iraq: [INDENT][INDENT]The one point I would make is that I think in all the discussion of risks we have lost sight of some of the rewards of a reasonably friendly, reasonably pro-Western government in Iraq. It would really transform the Middle East. A friendly, free, and oil-producing Iraq would leave Iran isolated. I think Syria would be cowed. The Palestinians would, I think, be more willing to negotiate seriously with Israel after this evidence of American willingness to exert influence in the region. Saudi Arabia would have much less leverage, if only because of Iraqi oil production coming on line, with us and with Europe. [/INDENT][/INDENT] Kristol has never met a conflict that he wanted other Americans to fight in. Born in 1952, he never served in Vietnam. He did presumably get college deferments. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/69 "2016-06-01T03:48:32Z")
French’s wife has “co-written” books with both Sarah and Bristol Palin. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/70 "2016-06-01T04:21:21Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Yes, but as noted many did. The problem is Kristol has never met a war he didn’t like. He is a permahawk, which indicates a certain lack of seriousness. > > Kristol on ISIS: [INDENT][INDENT]What’s the harm of bombing them at least for a few weeks and seeing what happens? I don’t think there’s much in the way of unanticipated side effects that are going to be bad there. [/INDENT][/INDENT] Yeah, [let’s just drop a few bombs and see what happens](http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/08/quote-day-lets-just-drop-few-bombs-and-see-what-happens). Kristol is a clown, far more so than Max Boot or the usual neocon suspects. > > Reason’s takedown on Bill Kristol (meh): [Before You Read Bill Kristol About 'What to Do in Iraq,' Read Bill Kristol in February 2002 About What to Do in Iraq](http://reason.com/blog/2014/06/16/before-you-read-bill-kristol-about-what) > > Here’s Bill Kristol’s Feb 2002 testimony on the puppies and rainbows that we would get if we only invade Iraq: [INDENT][INDENT]The one point I would make is that I think in all the discussion of risks we have lost sight of some of the rewards of a reasonably friendly, reasonably pro-Western government in Iraq. It would really transform the Middle East. A friendly, free, and oil-producing Iraq would leave Iran isolated. I think Syria would be cowed. The Palestinians would, I think, be more willing to negotiate seriously with Israel after this evidence of American willingness to exert influence in the region. Saudi Arabia would have much less leverage, if only because of Iraqi oil production coming on line, with us and with Europe. [/INDENT][/INDENT] Kristol has never met a conflict that he wanted other Americans to fight in. Born in 1952, he never served in Vietnam. He did presumably get college deferments. better than Trump being chummy with Kim Jong Il and Putin, giving Japan or Korea nukes, or Bernie gutting the defense industry or abolishing the military to please his extreme anti-all-military-intervention crowd. Not ideal tho. Kristol probably should’ve run himself if he wanted an old guard GOPer. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/71 "2016-06-01T04:21:37Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > French’s wife has “co-written” books with both Sarah and Bristol Palin. I seem to recall Kristol was the one pushing Palin on McCain camp in 2008. So we have that to thank him for too. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/72 "2016-06-01T05:03:58Z")
He got his damn check! ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/73 "2016-06-01T05:12:49Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > By the one that says that there’s always gonna be a country that wants to lead the world, so better us than China or Russia. That assumes Russia or China would be _capable_ of such a thing. I personally have my doubts. Indeed I suspect if the U.S. somehow even went full isolationist ( which would never happen ), any attempt by either of those countries to try and fill the vacuum would lead to their ruination economically. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/74 "2016-06-01T05:40:08Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > That assumes Russia or China would be _capable_ of such a thing. I personally have my doubts. Indeed I suspect if the U.S. somehow even went full isolationist ( which would never happen ), any attempt by either of those countries to try and fill the vacuum would lead to their ruination economically. if America were not in the picture, who could and/or would actually change Russia or China? Behind the US, China and Russia do have the largest number of nukes. Also, if someone replaced American economic tentacles, those tentacles (which I proudly like and use the term) which is made possible in part by our military might, then China or Russia could easily step in. Not needed. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/75 "2016-06-01T07:28:13Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > a lot of people cheerled Bush’s war to wag the undog and thus do what his dad didn’t; get re-elected. The media, the oil industry, 9/11 families, you name it. Many Democrats too; you gonna toss them all under the bus? Nope, I’m gonna throw Bushie and pals under the bus for lying their asses off. And I hope it hurts. > [@](#): > > Even for as bad as the Iraq War is, no, its not Vietnam. Or Korea. Or even the Communists in Afghanistan; all those wars costed orders of magnitudes more lives. These other wars you mention were against actual, you know, armies in the field. The armies left the field in Iraq inside of a couple of months. Less casualties? Wow. Knock me over with a feather. Gotta love this guy’s revision of history. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/76 "2016-06-01T07:40:17Z")
Derek - You might want to read about hegemonic stability theory. It might tighten your arguments somewhat. No snark intended. [Hegemonic stability theory - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemonic_stability_theory) As I see it, one the challenges over the next 50 to 100 years is to pass the torch to a democratic China. Because, they could have a third of the US’s per person income and still have a larger economy in total. 1400 million population \>\> 300 million. Over the medium run, I think the US is the necessary hegemon. But that’s not a sustainable or even desirable state of affairs. For the time being it is merely least bad. IMHO. But over the long run, you don’t fight the current, you master it. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/77 "2016-06-01T08:25:58Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Bill Kristol? Really? Why does anyone take anything he says seriously at this point? The only valid response to anything Bill Kristol proposes is laughter. I know, right? Did you see _When Harry Met Sally_? Hilarious! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/78 "2016-06-01T12:03:26Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > I feel sorry for Bill Kristol; he is a patriot who cares about American security and its role in the world, unlike Trump, but he needs to learn to give up. He may be a patriot and care about America, but he’s an idiot who’s constantly wrong, and if he were in charge, America would be much, much weaker, and tens of thousands of Americans (including many of my personal friends) would be sent overseas to die for nothing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/79 "2016-06-01T12:05:51Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > but his ideas are better than Trump OR Bernie. Both Trump and Bernie are isolationists who don’t get that America must lead the world, so moral points to Kristol. > > Kristol’s big cause is defense; he would’ve done himself well to get on board with Max Boot, Bob Kagan and a few fellow turncoat GOPs, and let Hillary use their support to bolster her national security cred for the general (and also not need as much Sanders fans in exchange). His ideas may be equally bad as Trump’s, but they’re far, far worse than Bernie. Bernie wouldn’t send tens of thousands of Americans overseas to die for nothing, as Kristol would. I understand it’s easy for armchair warriors to send others (including my friends) to die for nothing, but it’s still monstrous. Kristol is a monstrous idiot, no matter his motivations or patriotism. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048/80 "2016-06-01T13:15:50Z")
It is a logical necessity that there will be some nation with a military stronger than any other nation in the world. And honestly, I’ve no problem with that nation being the US. It is not, however, a logical necessity that there be some nation with a military stronger than _everyone else in the world combined_. That state of affairs is not only not necessary; it’s pathological. And that’s what I (and Sanders) would like to see come to an end. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-kristols-independent-candidate-who-will-it-be/756048.md?page=5)