# Bill Nye the Science Guy vs Creotard Ken Ham **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 3, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764 "2014-01-03T01:52:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/181 "2014-02-15T23:48:56Z")
Naturally, Ken Ham and other creationists have never used disparaging language in describing their opponents. They are unfailingly polite and courteous when attempting to take the US science curriculum back to the Dark Ages. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/182 "2014-02-15T23:56:55Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > […]the Earth is only 6,000 years old. […] Who said THAT?? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/183 "2014-02-16T02:12:12Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Who said THAT?? 😕 Ken Ham, for one. ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/184 "2014-02-16T02:22:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Who said THAT?? Merely quoting from the Times column. And, of course, you must remember the Bishop Ussher, using calculations based on the Bible, deduced that the earth was created\*\*\* at nightfall preceding Sunday, October 23, 4004 BC\*\*\*. So this means that the earth is precisely 6017 years and 85 days old (as of nightfall today). You’d probably be amazed at how many folks devoutly believe this. According to the Times article, at least 46% of them do. And dinosaurs and humans coexisted for quite a while. You could have your own T Rex for a pet. ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/185 "2014-02-16T02:29:43Z")
Actually, one of the things that make the whole Noah’s Ark thing sort of puzzling, is how two kangaroo’s, after debarking from the Ark, managed to find their way from a mountain in Turkey all the way to Australia safely, and didn’t leave any progeny anywhere else on the way. I wonder how long it took them for the journey? They must have been hellacious swimmers. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/186 "2014-02-16T03:57:05Z")
Why pick on Kangaroos? Kangaroos can cover large distances and swim well. I’m not suggesting the issue you raise isn’t real, but there are even more convincing examples. What about some little snail found only in Tasmania? ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/187 "2014-02-16T04:02:57Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > A real testament to our education system. There are something like four times as many churches in the US as schools. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/188 "2014-02-16T04:10:16Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > There are something like four times as many churches in the US as schools. So? What does this prove other than that the US has diversity of religious practice? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/189 "2014-02-16T05:20:56Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > […] And, of course, you must remember the Bishop Ussher, using calculations based on the Bible, […] I don’t consider Ussher’s calculations to be accurate. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/190 "2014-02-16T05:33:55Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > Actually, one of the things that make the whole Noah’s Ark thing sort of puzzling, is how two kangaroo’s, after debarking from the Ark, managed to find their way from a mountain in Turkey all the way to Australia safely, and didn’t leave any progeny anywhere else on the way. I wonder how long it took them for the journey? They must have been hellacious swimmers. Or maybe the same people who gathered up the animals returned them to where they picked them up, eh wot? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![scratch\_llll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@scratch\_llll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch_llll)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/191 "2014-02-16T06:44:56Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Or maybe the same people who gathered up the animals returned them to where they picked them up, eh wot? 😛 Good point. It’s absolute batshit crazy to think Noah left his dry docked boat to travel every backwater crevice of the world to gather all of them together then distributed them after. I wonder how many lifetimes such a thing would take? Not that it matters as creationists can solve any conundrum with God poofed it so. How do you argue logic with someone who believes in poofing? Need to bridge a gap in reasoning? Poof it! Still, I respect the effort Nye put forth. I don’t respect the poofing tards because it’s lazy intellect to fill gaps with poofs. I suppose in the interest of civility one could refrain from calling them pooftards even though they so obviously are but why do so here where folks actually adhere to reason? I just noticed my name precludes entry into this discussion. I’m automaticly suspect. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/192 "2014-02-16T06:53:05Z")
You are a fountain of straight lines. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![computergeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e56c9b/32.png) [@computergeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/computergeek)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/193 "2014-02-16T10:52:17Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > Unfortunately, the creationists seem to be winning. Just read in the _Seattle Times_ this morning that something like 46 percent of Americans believe that the Earth is only 6,000 years old. A real testament to our education system. I would want to know the actual specific questions to the poll and the actual answers that were available. The media does not always have a good track record for reporting the various opinion polls accurately, at least some of them. In regards to this type of poll, there’s a difference between believing God created the Universe and Earth but also believing science and that the Earth is several billions of years old and the Universe older, and God created it in 6 days thus the Earth is only 6,000 years old. The first believes in a general view of God without taking the Bible literally and have no problem with evolution or other parts of science; the second of course are the Young Earth creationists and Intelligent Design folks who want to push their religious views into science classes and degrade evolution and other science that they don’t agree with because it contradicts the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/194 "2014-02-16T13:42:51Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > You are a fountain of straight lines. 😛 You have avoided the challenge of explaining why Ken Ham’s views of 6,000 year old earth deserve to be treated with respect. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/195 "2014-02-16T15:55:06Z")
Avoid personal attacks (take 'em to the Pit if you can’t contain yourself) and stay on topic, _everyone_. Thanks, **twicks** ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/196 "2014-02-16T17:19:07Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > You have avoided the challenge of explaining why Ken Ham’s views of 6,000 year old earth deserve to be treated with respect. All right, I’ll take up the challenge here and now. You will, I assume, grant that the Bible is a condensed account. (Just as well, considering that in English it contains about 750,000 words!) The creation of the earth is recounted in Verse 1. The preparation of it as an inhabitable, and inhabited, planet, begins in Verse 3. I submit that there is a time element here, and the events of Verse 1 need not be construed as restricted to beginning no earlier than 6000 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![computergeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e56c9b/32.png) [@computergeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/computergeek)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/197 "2014-02-16T18:24:38Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > All right, I’ll take up the challenge here and now. > > You will, I assume, grant that the Bible is a condensed account. (Just as well, considering that in English it contains about 750,000 words!) > > The creation of the earth is recounted in Verse 1. The preparation of it as an inhabitable, and inhabited, planet, begins in Verse 3. I submit that there is a time element here, and the events of Verse 1 need not be construed as restricted to beginning no earlier than 6000 years ago. So you’re saying you’re fine with seeing the Earth as billions of years old while still believing in the essence of the Bible? A lot of Christians who aren’t literalists feel comfortable with that. How does that translate to Ken Hamm deserving respect for believing the Earth is only 6,000 years old just because he believes the Bible says that? BTW, the Bible doesn’t explicitly say the Earth is 6,000 years old; the age had to be inferred from the various genealogies in the Bible, so pretty much interpreted. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/198 "2014-02-16T18:35:17Z")
> [@B.Serum](#): > > So? What does this prove other than that the US has diversity of religious practice? It shows that our educational system isn’t what’s producing this nonsense. (And indirectly that this idea that secularists are taking over and there’s no place to get religious indoctrination any more is ridiculous). As an aside, though, it really doesn’t show that the US has a diversity of religious practice, unless by “diversity” you mean “different kinds of Christians.” Non-Christian places of worship are a tiny, tiny [fraction of the number of churches](http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fast_facts.html), about 12,000 out of almost 400,000. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/199 "2014-02-16T20:13:14Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > All right, I’ll take up the challenge here and now. > > You will, I assume, grant that the Bible is a condensed account. (Just as well, considering that in English it contains about 750,000 words!) > > The creation of the earth is recounted in Verse 1. The preparation of it as an inhabitable, and inhabited, planet, begins in Verse 3. I submit that there is a time element here, and the events of Verse 1 need not be construed as restricted to beginning no earlier than 6000 years ago. You realize this has no additional substance to it than Ham’s argument, right? You haven’t provided _anything_ to rebut other than a ‘guess’ that some ‘time element’ exists between 1 and 3 - you haven’t defined what that “time element” was - a “microsecond” is a “time element” as much as a “billion quadrillion years” is. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/200 "2014-02-16T21:02:45Z")
> [@Yumblie](#): > > I think the most poignant part of the whole thing was the question “What would it take to change your mind?” Nye said “Evidence.” Ham said “Never.” That alone should completely discredit anything Ham has to say. The way each of them responded to that question pretty much sums up the entire debate. Yup. I’m a bit disappointed that Nye didn’t take the opportunity (I think he had three) to slam that easy lob. The final chance was one of the last questions: “What is the basis of your belief?” Ham’s response was basically “Gospel”. Nye did a great thing by asking for the question to be asked again, and I thought he’d respond with a simple: “The EVIDENCE” and give it a good long pause, and then maybe saying, “Because, if it’s not about the evidence, it’s not science, and science is what we’re discussing today.” PERIOD. Sigh … opportunity lost. > [@Ca3799](#): > > I’m glad Bill Nye agreed to do the debate, especially in light of the fact that he had to enter ‘the lion’s den’ to do it. I expected the audience to be stacked in favor of Ham since it was at his ‘museum,’ and I’m not sure that it was judging by the applause and the post-debate audience questions. I thought the moderator was good, too. Yeah, I questioned the wisdom of the setup here, but it turned out very well, and I have to give Nye credit. I thought he missed some great chances for excellent and succinct replies, but he still did way better than I’d ever be able to do. As a friend of mine I was just discussing this with said, scientists tend to be people who sit alone for long hours pondering each step carefully, and don’t tend to be the type who does well in a debate. He has a point. But Nye isn’t a scientist as much as an apologist for science (for which I applaud him). Still, he’s not the greatest debator of our age. I’d like to see Bill Clinton well-prepped to handle it! > [@](#): > > Ham is a great speaker to his audience- he uses sciency-sounding words and ideas that appeal to less his well- or bias-educated creationists. Those educated by creation science textbooks will agree with Ham one hundred percent as he will reinforce all they have been taught. But the first part of his 30 minute intro was just appeals to authority (‘This scientist is a creationist! So is this one! And this one, who conveniently works for me!’), and he finished up with appeals to authority as well. > > I was not impressed with Hams’ use of scare quotes around the word science and with his division of science into two realms that he identifies as “observational science” and “historical science”. The link Patty O’Furniture posted and I quoted below is an excellent response to this. However, it behooves us to acknowledge that evolution is indeed a historical science (in addition to, rather than as opposed to, an observational science.) I wish Nye had taken the many chances to ask whether, due to the limits of “historical science”, we can use any observation today to say anything about yesterday (or prehistory). If the answer is no, then we’re clearly not talking about science. If the evidence doesn’t matter, it’s not science, and shouldn’t be taught in science class. > [@](#): > > Apparently, only “observational science” or according to him, science that one can observe with one of your own 5 senses, can be trusted. “Historical science” cannot be observed and therefore cannot be “proven” or “trusted.” Of course, he allows this sort of “historical” thing for the Bible since he wasn’t around to see God create Adam and Eve, but never mind that. Right – he refuses to accept that he gets hoist on his own petard (just as anyone who discredits reasoning based on reason being impaired after the Fall.) > [@](#): > > Bill Nye knew his audience and did a couple of impressive things. One, he asked a simple question to creationists by asking if the Ark landed on Ararat, and kangaroos are found in Australia, why are there no kangaroo fossils found between the two places. Later Ham said the kangaroos crossed on a land bridge (all of them, I guess). Nye asked why there is no evidence of a land bridge. This kind of simple question is what is needed to put that seed of (educational) doubt into the minds of folks who have had a substandard or Christian/homeschool education. One of his best moments. I also liked the snow layers and tree rings. Too bad he didn’t remember those when asked if there was other evidence for the age of the Earth (other than radio-dating) > [@](#): > > The final thing Nye did really well was in being approachable and humble. Agreed. > [@Monty](#): > > ETA: Oh, and the biggest “WTF?” moment was when Ham asserted that humanity is composed of five races, because, of course, “The Bible says so.” I think you’re mistaken on that. Ham said that Darwin claimed 5 races, and quoted an early 20th century textbook in an absurd claim, and then said that the Bible says there’s but one race. > [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > He did. And as you predicted, it was hilarious watching Ham explain that those Christians must be wrong because we have a fossil of a dinosaur with a brain tumor, and clearly brain tumors couldn’t exist before humans, since we’re responsible for everything bad. Therefore, dinosaurs must be less than 6000 years old. Yeah, no kidding. I found that a bit ironic! And SCIENTIFIC! lol > [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](#): > > I thought this was a good video response to how Ham tried to redefine what science is (saying that what he calls “historical science” is invalid because it can’t be directly observed). Ham then proceeds to use ‘historical science’ in support of his ideas about species variation: > > [http://youtu.be/5jMVYdgVVgc](http://youtu.be/5jMVYdgVVgc) That’s a great link, and for those of us who care about science, it’s a perfect rebuttal to Ham’s central point, and the only one that saved him from complete slaughter because Nye didn’t quite manage to answer it. In any case, I was heartened by a good honest debate where the participants showed respect and followed the rules and got a chance to make their arguments, with an audience that acted with equal maturity. God Bless 'em all! 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