# Bill Nye the Science Guy vs Creotard Ken Ham **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 3, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764 "2014-01-03T01:52:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/121 "2014-02-05T20:25:38Z")
I came away from the whole thing with one big question though, “What was Bill Nye writing while Ken was talking?” ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/122 "2014-02-05T20:33:22Z")
I just liked that it was the American arguing _for_ evolution, for once. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/123 "2014-02-05T20:35:34Z")
It’s the twenty-first frickin’ century, people. Why the hell is creationism even still a thing? ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/124 "2014-02-05T20:41:19Z")
> [@](#): > > For instance: what about the nonsensical argument that any and all science is actually copying christian ethos and/or logic? Some of the things he said were so bizarre, there is no counterargument, except for to say, “So your claim is \” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/125 "2014-02-05T21:56:09Z")
How did the audience behave during the debate? ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/126 "2014-02-05T22:02:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How did the audience behave during the debate? Respectful, well-behaved. Possibly bored during the portions that got into the hard science / pseudo-science (depending on who was speaking). ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/127 "2014-02-05T22:56:17Z")
I watched it online. I found it interesting/amusing/effective how Bill Nye subtly pointed much of his talk at Kentucky specifically, without blatantly saying “You’re rubes, the rest of the world thinks you’re rubes, and you’re dooming your children to rubedom”. I think he managed to communicate shame without condescension, a very tough line to walk. He also did well in marginalizing Ham into the small minority position within Christianity itself. What I found scary was how good the obfuscation and tech-babbling of the creationist presentations were. Items like the taxonomy trees, cherry-picking of data (such as radioactive decay) to misapply in an expert-sounding way, the born-again PhD researchers, gave a very effective barrier to anyone of a non-scientific education to easily poke holes in. Ham was also an expert at jumping between wearing the hats of “scientific” expert and aw-schucks common sense good ol’ boy. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/128 "2014-02-05T23:07:36Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > And where does that “common error” of 1,000 “kinds” of animals come from? Is that figure mentioned in the Bible? > > And if _those kind of Christians_ really believe that, how do they explain all the “kinds” we see today? I think there are more than 1,001 “kinds” of animals today. Did they just… evolve or something? Or did God get all creative sometime after the flood and start creating again? The whole ‘kinds’ thing is a big wobbly ball of nonsense - it’s designed to try to work around problems exactly such as fitting all of the ancestors of all animal life on the ark. Supposedly, a ‘kind’ may comprise a collection of species - which may share a common ancestor - that is, there is some limited variation within a kind, permitting speciation, but no more variation than that. Try to nail them down on specifics, and you’ll just get evasion and vague handwaving. And you’ll never get them to explain the mechanics of how the variation is limited, either. Big ball of nonsense that serves to support an argument, as long as nobody is interested in knowing how. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/129 "2014-02-05T23:17:07Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > At one point, I thought Ken Ham actually gave the best argument but then reached a bizarrely wrong conclusion. When he addressed “Christians who believe in evolution” and he pointed out all the things in the fossil record that were in conflict with Scripture. He even said a few times, “So they both cannot be true.” So after all this, his conclusion was apparently that we should reject the evidence in the fossil record in favor of the Biblical record. He didn’t come out and explicitly say we should reject the evidence right in front of our faces, but that was the gist of it. I thought Bill Nye would jump all over that argument, but he ignored it. I did see this paragraph in a Young Earth Creationist’s review of the debate: [Bill Nye’s Reasonable Man—The Central Worldview Clash of the Ham-Nye Debate](http://www.albertmohler.com/2014/02/05/bill-nyes-reasonable-man-the-central-worldview-clash-of-the-ham-nye-debate/One/) > [@](#): > > \*\*The problem with human reason is that it, along with every other aspect of our humanity, was corrupted by the fall. \*\*This is what theologians refer to as the “noetic effects of the fall.” We have not lost the ability to know all things, but we have lost the ability to know them on our own authority and power. We are completely dependent upon divine revelation for the answers to the most important questions of life. Our sin keeps us from seeing what is right before our eyes in nature. We are dependent upon the God who loves us enough to reveal himself to us—and to give us his Word. > > As it turns out, the reality and authority of divine revelation, more than any other issue, was what the debate last night was all about. As the closing statements made very clear, Ken Ham understood that fact, but Bill Nye did not. [my bold] So, apparently, when reason tells us that reality conflicts with scripture, it is because our reason is faulty. If this is true, then of course you would have to reject the fossil record in favor of the Biblical record. We are sinners who cannot trust reason. Although, wouldn’t reaching this conclusion involve reasoning and therefore possibly be incorrect? Maybe the author of the bolded sentence is suffering from noetic effects and he doesn’t realize it. But then that conclusion may be incorrect. Shit! Now I’m stuck in a faulty reasoning feedback loop. And I can’t tell if it’s a faulty “reasoning feedback loop” or a “faulty reasoning” feedback loop. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/130 "2014-02-05T23:18:08Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > No need for divinity of Jesus, then? Or for the necessary existence of miracles? > > Anyway, I said “started me on the road.” Other bits of nonsense from Christianity, and sense from the real world explored and explained by science, kept me going on the same road. > > Bottom line: I don’t need Christ to think loving fellow human beings is a Good Idea. I’m okay with Christ being divine, he did make a transcendent argument that loving fellow human beings, even enemies, is a principle and belief to organize one’s existence around. I’m also okay if it turns out he isn’t divine as he did make a transcendent argument that loving fellow human beings, even enemies, is a principle and belief to organize one’s existence around. Now, when you say you don’t need “Christ” to think loving… is a good idea, keep in mind that Christ means “savior”, so don’t give away your argument. But most atheists thinking it is good to love fellow human beings (and most atheists I know do love their fellow human beings) doesn’t really go far enough. Christian theology, or philosophy if you don’t believe in divinity, goes a lot farther than that. Do you love your enemies? Do you think it is an organizing principle of a life and community? Are you prepared to forgive those who have hurt you? > [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > When Pat Robertson thinks you’re a joke, you have some serious issues. Pat Robertson is an Elmer Gantry. He’s made billions pretending to have religion. He’s worried about this new guy being competition, forgetting that God is going to call Pat home very soon now according to the actuarial tables. New Fellow probably has the advantage of being sincere. Pat Robertson is lifelong scum. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/131 "2014-02-05T23:25:40Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Do you love your enemies? I don’t love my enemies. I avoid “enemy” as a category. Christianity is very quick to construct dichotomies that I think interfere with human harmony. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/132 "2014-02-06T00:26:15Z")
> [@B.Serum](#): > > I just liked that it was the American arguing _for_ evolution, for once. I had no idea this Ham guy was a fellow Australian until this morning. I’m sorry about that folks. In mitigation he’s from the state of Queensland, which is only kinda-Australia - they think of themselves as Queenslanders first and Australians second (if at all). Queensland is our Florida, Georgia, Alabama and Tennessee all rolled into one, with a light dusting of Texas sprinkled all over it for extra flavour. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/133 "2014-02-06T00:30:23Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It’s the twenty-first frickin’ century, people. Why the hell is creationism even still a thing? It’s profitable. I wish I was kidding, but it’s basically a business thing. Creationism keeps people dependent on evangelical Christianity to provide them with the comfort of knowledge, superiority, and community. That keeps them coming to church and paying money so the pastors can have lots of money. The pastors therefore support the Ken Hams of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/134 "2014-02-06T00:34:21Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Christian theology, or philosophy if you don’t believe in divinity, goes a lot farther than that. Do you love your enemies? Do you think it is an organizing principle of a life and community? Are you prepared to forgive those who have hurt you? Other philosophies than Christianity have reached and answered these questions. A Savior, Christ, is _not_ required to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/135 "2014-02-06T00:38:04Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > I had no idea this Ham guy was a fellow Australian until this morning. I’m sorry about that folks. > > In mitigation he’s from the state of Queensland, which is only kinda-Australia - they think of themselves as Queenslanders first and Australians second (if at all). Queensland is our Florida, Georgia, Alabama and Tennessee all rolled into one, with a light dusting of Texas sprinkled all over it for extra flavour. So he’s not a _real_ Australian? 🙂 Blimey! ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/136 "2014-02-06T00:44:23Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Christian theology, or philosophy if you don’t believe in divinity, goes a lot farther than that. Do you love your enemies? Do you think it is an organizing principle of a life and community? Are you prepared to forgive those who have hurt you? What’s the dominant Christian view of Bin Laden? Hitler? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/137 "2014-02-06T00:50:04Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > What’s the dominant Christian view of Bin Laden? Hitler? I can’t speak to what is “dominant”. The theology is that you do not hate your enemy, you love and understand their humanity. How do you do that with a genocidal psychopath? Most Christians fail at that, as I do. When thinking of Hitler and the Nazis, which serious people to a lot, we are confronted with the question of how did they do what they did to millions of people? Are they inhuman? I don’t think so. I think they are consumed, they let themselves be consumed, by their hatred of others, their lust for power, their deep insecurities and failings. Hitler wasn’t a one-off. We will meet his kind again, and it is best to understand that reality and be prepared to head it off politically and militarily. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/138 "2014-02-06T01:03:25Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I can’t speak to what is “dominant”. The theology is that you do not hate your enemy, you love and understand their humanity. How do you do that with a genocidal psychopath? Most Christians fail at that, as I do. > > When thinking of Hitler and the Nazis, which serious people to a lot, we are confronted with the question of how did they do what they did to millions of people? Are they inhuman? I don’t think so. I think they are consumed, they let themselves be consumed, by their hatred of others, their lust for power, their deep insecurities and failings. Hitler wasn’t a one-off. We will meet his kind again, and it is best to understand that reality and be prepared to head it off politically and militarily. So…not into loving your enemies then? ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/139 "2014-02-06T01:27:11Z")
[QUOTE=Dasmoocher quoting a YEC] The problem with human reason is that it, along with every other aspect of our humanity, was corrupted by the fall. This is what theologians refer to as the “noetic effects of the fall.” We have not lost the ability to know all things, but we have lost the ability to know them on our own authority and power. We are completely dependent upon divine revelation for the answers to the most important questions of life. Our sin keeps us from seeing what is right before our eyes in nature. We are dependent upon the God who loves us enough to reveal himself to us—and to give us his Word. As it turns out, the reality and authority of divine revelation, more than any other issue, was what the debate last night was all about. As the closing statements made very clear, Ken Ham understood that fact, but Bill Nye did not. [/QUOTE] That’s some real weapons-grade ignorance there. No wonder it’s taking longer than we thought! ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764/140 "2014-02-06T01:46:59Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > I had no idea this Ham guy was a fellow Australian until this morning. I’m sorry about that folks. > > In mitigation he’s from the state of Queensland, which is only kinda-Australia - they think of themselves as Queenslanders first and Australians second (if at all). Queensland is our Florida, Georgia, Alabama and Tennessee all rolled into one, with a light dusting of Texas sprinkled all over it for extra flavour. Thanks for telling me what I think, **Askance**. In mitigation you’re from Sydney, which is only kinda-Australia - Sydneysiders think of themselves as unique worldly sophisticates first and Australians second (if at all). Sydneysiders are like New Yorkers who are surprised when they travel to the United States and discover to their amazement that you can get the internet outside the Five Boroughs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-nye-the-science-guy-vs-creotard-ken-ham/677764.md?page=8)