"Bill of No Rights"

“I don’t think you could ever exist in a world where business did whatever it wanted and the people had zero controls except purchasing power.”

And to be fair to Rand, I think that she would agree with that statement. She wasn’t an anarchist by any reckoning: at least judging by her “ideal world” in the book, she believed in a minimal government, not an absence of government. In denouncing the “looters,” she includes dishonesty and coercion as improper means of making money. IIRC, at least one of the businessmen in the book is a villain not because his company is milking at the public teat but because it intentionally made shoddy goods.

[Note: The following is not a spam. The thread, “A License For Freedom?” seems to have become corrupted, having lost everything past the first page. This is the most appropriate topic I could find to which to bring the discussion.]

Freedom [double take…]:

Yes, I know. That’s why I SAID, “Well, if we can draft people, why can’t we just put them all in pods where they can do research for The State?”

It illustrates the Slippery Slope principle.

Who cares? The point is that the draft was usurpatious to start with; therefore, it cannot be used as an ethical basis to justify anything.

Excuse my French, but fuck The State.

Yeah. We’re barbarians. And your point?

There is only one right, in my opinion, and that is the right to be free from coercion and fraud. That’s what meaningful Freedom is, freedom from the coercion and fraud of other people.

If I give you five dollars, will you have your username changed please?

Nevermind. Sorry.

[walking out backwards… slowly… turning… running…]

It looks to me that Libertarian needs a little more government control :slight_smile:

How about:

You do not have the right to plagarize other peoples’ work.


Plunging like stones from a slingshot on Mars.

America the generous?

Doesn’t America give the LEAST foreign aid (as percent of its GNP) of any western country?

Mr. Zambezi, you’re lack of understanding into America’s own foreign policy leaves you without any viable credibility.

Who said I agreed with America’s involvement in Iran, Somalia and Kosovo, dumbass? In fact, they perfectly prove my earlier point.

Somalia was nothing more for America than a PR event, during a time of sluggish American economy. America supported the main figure in Somalia’s devastating war,Siad Barre, who it is estimated killed 50-60 thousand. America’s greatest advantage(there has to be one)was the justification of Pentagon expenditures. Somalia’s fighting factions had been reduced to teenagers but, Navy Seals running around sure looks good to the unknowing masses(include yourself?).

I’m not sure what the hell you’re suggesting about Iran, other than the contra-arms deal which sent arms through Israel to the home of the Khomeini in order to please military factions the Americans hoped would overthrow the regime.
If by chance you uneducatedly meant to say Iraq, the American Policy looks even poorer there. Remember that Saddam was openly the CIA’s Foreign Man of the Year for a number of years until he stepped out of line. The day that America invaded Panama they also announced that they would stop loans to Iraq for human rights abuses!! America didn’t want a diplomatic solution to the crisis. Iraq had agreed to a total withdrawl on Jan. 2,91. America balked at this agreement as, it would have led to more agreements in the Middle East with the unfortunate outcome of greater peace in the region. Bush has been condemed by the world court for “unlawful use of force” for it’s action in Panama. Damn that invasion of Kuwait though!!
America’s policy on Kosovo among other issues proves America’s hopes that Eastern Europe breaks down. Using it’s capitalist model of intervention, America has economically raped Brazil and Mexico and this is the plan for Eastern Europe now that the Soviet pressure is gone.
Boy, America, how many ways can you be thanked! If only America would truly become isolationists (which has always been bullshit), the world would be a better place.

And Mr. Z. please don’t fall into the media propaganda that has already clouded your simple view.

The OP is claiming these articles were written in response to liberal positions?

I’ll be the first to agree there are stupid and unnecessary goverment controls on both ends of the political spectrum, but censorship and military intervention are conservative problems not liberal ones.

Off on a tangent, why do so many people assume that if a big government, which is subject to democratic control, can’t be trusted to act responsibly that a big business, if all forms of control over it were removed, would act in a resposnible manner? Maybe I’m crazy, but I believe that the corporate rights should be subordinate to the rights of people, not the other way around.

For the last 7 years these are liberal issues. Clinton has used the military more times than any other president in the last 50 years.

The censorship thing can go both ways. Just look at the Rocker situation and his “re-education.”

You will have to be a little more specific here. Do you mean that the rights of a corporation to it’s profits should be subordinate to a person’s right to:

Health care
Housing
Welfare
Jobs
Child Care
Decent Wages

That list is only the beginning. Where do you stop? Should we nationalize all the major businesses? How hard do you want to make it for a business to suceed? Where is the motivation to build a business when you have to provide everything for everybody whether or not they have earned it?

Every person has the right to go out and start their own business. Nobody should have the right to demand anything of anyone else. If you don’t like the deal you have, then go make a better one.

How do you reconcile that notion with the notion that The State ought to demand that every man to own a gun — hell, not just demand, but require it by law?

Libertarian…
Are you missing something?

I threw something out there to intentionally piss people off and send them chasing after something that was ridiculous. Then I explained it to you. Twice I think.

You are so far gone in chasing this non-existant tangent that I am afraid when you get back you will run off to find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Now, if you posted this before reading ym last post to you in the License thread, I apoligize. But if you have read it and still don’t understand, then I give up.

Ok, I’m going to try one last time to explain my position there.

If we don’t respect freedom, and think we can regulate and license people before they can exercise their natural rights, then who decides what laws are OK?

My example was an attempt to illustrate that while regulation may seem just fine at any given moment as long as it is going in a direction that someone agrees with, it can always take a turn against you.

It is easy to support gun control when you don’t like guns. You are losing nothing. This is not a right that you place any value on.

But if the government has the right to decide who cannot have guns, then it also has the right to decide who MUST have guns.

I was just trying to show that gun control could be a double edged sword. I am sure that there are many people out there that would love to restrict my right to own firearms, but would balk at the idea of being forced to own one.

:slight_smile:

(just thinking about their faces at that moment makes me smile)

So here it is, plain and simple:

I do not think the government has the right to restrict my right to own a firearms any more than they have the right to require firearms ownership.

So therefore… If you do not think they have the right to license me to own a gun, we do not have an issue.

But…

If someone thinks the government needs to get involved, than I want them to worry about my version of government infringement on their rights as much as as much as I have to worry about their version.

Freedom, in response to your post that these are examples of “liberal” administrations (assuming the Clinton presidency qualifies as such) that have advocated censorship and military intervention, I agree. But overall, these issues are more often associated with conservative idealogies.

As for your statements:

To answer your first question, I’m confident we’d stop long before any of your other questions needed to be answered. There is a vast middle ground between Anarchy and Communism.

I fully appreciate the value that capitalism and the open market provides to society. But a corporation is designed to maximize profit not to benefit society, and some of the possible means of maximizing profits would have a detrimental effect on society. In which case, I feel society has the right to place the welfare of people above the profitibility of the corporation.

For example, let’s suppose a corporation produces toxic waste as it manufactures its product. From a corporate standpoint the ideal solution to this problem would be to dump the toxic waste down the most convenient disposal system. Obviously this would have reprecussions on other people, so society forces this corporation (along with all others) to dispose of their toxic wastes in a manner which minimizes the dangers to people. This clearly is governmental interference in business, but I (and most other people) feel it is acceptable.

As for the right of people to “go out and start their own business” where does this right originate? I’m sure you’ll agree that corporations have no interest in encouraging the creation of businesses that will compete against them. On the contrary, from a corporate standpoint the sensible action is to take whatever steps they can to minimize competition. And an unrestrained corporation would be capable of taking very large steps in that pursuit. The only entity that allows you the right to start your own business is the government which regulates the ability of corporations to suppress possible rivals.

So to summarize, I feel government is a tool. It is capable of terrible things if used wrongly. But a properly used government is the only tool capable of guaranteeing the rights of people to live as they choose.

Freedom:

I believe the time signatures of the posts will give you your answer. Again, I’m sorry.

TECHCHICK!! HOW COOL!

YOU JUST quoted the lyrics to a record, made and released, during the 70s that was BANNED from the radio and promptly SOLD TO EVERYONE through the 7-11s! It was called AMERICANS! I have a single copy of the record – a 45 rpm, and recall when it was banned. It is not anymore, at least that is what radio stations tell me, but no one seems to have heard of it nor will anyone play taped copies of it.

It was removed from the air by the government because it pissed off the foreign governments who screwed us over – (got that MARY’S LEGS)? – and we were in the middle of some sensitive political negotiations then. Back then the 7-11s were pretty popular and all over the place and very much pro-American so they bought up the millions of copies and sold them at the registers for about $1.00 each.

MAN! That is so cool!! I thought I had the LAST EXISTING COPY of the song! (Though, I still can’t get any radio station to play it because they all say it ‘doesn’t match their format.’ I send them taped copies.)


What? Me worry?’

Rainbowcsr, let’s take it from the top.

1 - The government doesn’t have the authority to ban songs.

2 - If the government had the power to ban songs, why would they choose to ban one of the most pro-American songs ever recorded?

3 - This song was played regularly on radio stations back when it was released and is still occasionally heard. I’d estimate its play frequency is comparable to that of other minor pop songs twenty five years after their release.

I enjoy a good conspiracy theory as much as the next guy, but this one ranks right up there with Martian cattle mutilators in terms of believability.

Little Nemo:

I’m not so old that my memory is failing, yet, but I certainly recall the recording being played heavily down here in Florida during the '70s and then, suddenly, it was off of the radio. I recall reading a news article about how the record had been pulled from radio play and shortly after it appeared in the 7-11s with a lot of fanfare concerning free speech. Since then, being an avid radio listener, I have not heard it played. Back then, the FCC COULD and DID ban recordings if they found them offensive and radio stations often went right along with them.

MARY HARTS LEGS:

America doesn’t have the monopoly on self serving ideology nor idiots in office. Hearken to examples from your home land:

**Today in 1993 there are still Iraqis and Kurds who remember being bombed and machine-gunned by the RAF in the 1920s. A Kurd from the Korak Mountains commented, seventy years after the event: They were bombing here in the Kaniya Khoran…Sometimes they raided three times a day. Wing Commander Lewis, then of 30 Squadron (RAF), Iraq, recalls how quite often one would get a signal that a certain Kurdish village would have to be bombed…, the RAF pilots being ordered to bomb any Kurd who looked hostile. In the same vein, Squadron-Leader Kendal of 30 Squadron recalls that if the tribespeople were doing something they ought not be doing then you shot them.

Similarly, Wing-Commander Gale, also of 30 Squadron: *If the Kurds hadn't learned by our example to behave themselves in a civilized way then we had to spank their bottoms. This was done by bombs and guns.

Wing-Commander Sir Arthur Harris (later Bomber Harris, head of wartime Bomber Command) was happy to emphasize that *The Arab and Kurd now know what real bombing means in casualties and damage. Within forty-five minutes a full-size village can be practically wiped out and a third of its inhabitants killed or injured. * It was an easy matter to bomb and machine-gun the tribespeople, because they had no means of defense or retaliation. Iraq and Kurdistan were also useful laboratories for new weapons; devices specifically developed by the Air Ministry for use against tribal villages. The ministry drew up a list of possible weapons, some of them the forerunners of napalm and air-to-ground missiles:

Phosphorus bombs, war rockets, metal crowsfeet [to maim livestock] man-killing shrapnel, liquid fire, delay-action bombs. Many of these weapons were first used in Kurdistan.

Excerpt from pages 179-181 of Simons, Geoff. Iraq: From Sumer to Saddam.

London: St. Martins Press, 1994.

From a British Correspondent
Friday, 12 July 1996
"The article below was found while browsing through the archives. It is typical of UK Government (the author is on the SEAC committee) in that it gives as little information as possible whilst giving the impression that the government is in control and that there is nothing to worry about. Nevertheless, it gives an insight into the direction of UK government funded research. People in the US are not aware that while the UK puts about the image of the mother of democracies and all that, it is rather far from the truth. Although we were more democratic that most countries a long time ago, they have moved on and we have not. Consider the following:

  •   We have an unelected head of state
    
  •   We have an unelected second house
    
  •   Our MPs boast that they vote "according to their conscience" i.e. not in accordance with their constituents wishes
    
  •   The party system "whips" MPs into uniformity
    
  •   The cost of standing for Parliament has been raised
    

beyond the affordability of individual citizens - We do not have a secret ballot for elections (unbelievable isn’t
it?)

  •   We have a formal system for news censorship (the D Notice system)
    
  •   Key matters are decided in secret by the Privy Council, which answers only to the sovereign. Members are appointed and include the leaders of all the political parties. Hence our loss of sovereignty to Europe. We have no documented civil rights or free speech entitlements            such as you have in the US - There is no freedom of information act. In law a civil servant can be jailed for revealing what brand of tea his minister drinks
    

The D Notice system is used not just for national security matters, but to suppress “unwelcome” information. The UK Windscale and Russian Chernobyl UK radiation levels were suppressed over here. One of our most senior conservative elder statesmen described our political system as “an elective dictatorship”: we elect them but have no control over them. 70% of the people want to bring back hanging for certain crimes but there is absolutely no chance of getting it through Parliament.
You have to understand this to appreciate how the BSE crisis developed. In many ways our political system is more akin to the old communist regimes in Eastern Europe than a Western democracy. Apart from the vastly different timescales the UK government reaction to BSE has been the same as the Russian regime to Chernobyl: first deny it exists, when that it not possible play it down, then try and make out it is all under control, and when the truth comes out panic!

I hope this helps people in America put UK news and government actions into context. As you can imagine, the Internet is having a dramatic impact over here." ***

Hmmm? Should we talk about the very many groups which have sprung up in the United Kingdom to try to stop racism? Not to mention the many attempts by Britain to wreck the Irish under the guise of creating peace?

By the way, we have a freedom of information act here and free speech so anyone can get statistics of crime in America and even break it down by sections. You know it is almost impossible to get freely given statistics on national crime in Britain? It’s like it’s almost a state secret or something.


What? Me worry?’

Here’s a site that talks about Gordon Sinclair’s recording and its sales:
http://www.rcc.ryerson.ca/schools/rta/ccf/news/unique/american.html

As this site states, Sinclair did not originally release it as a record and due to its popularity several other performers recorded it and released it before Sinclair did. Perhaps you’re thinking of one of these cover versions being withdrawn.

As for it being banned, this site shows the 8-16-98 playlist for the Cosmic Flop radio show: http://www.stitzel.com/slop/playlists/play08-16-98.html . As you can see The Americans is still played on the air.

Hold, It. Mary Hart’s Legs is English??? Can that possibly be true?

Oh yeah, you have a lot of room to talk about American foreign policy. Your just pissed that you guys lost your status of El Numero Uno to us.

Rainbow and Zambezi, politely stated, you folk are FUCKING moronic!!
Check you facts- I’m not British!! But still less to worry about if I was- nothing worse than ignorant Americans!!