# Bill O'Reilly again... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2004, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416 "2004-12-12T05:45:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/81 "2004-12-12T18:43:59Z")
The hell he didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/82 "2004-12-12T18:51:20Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It;s still inappropriate and insulting for public schools to lead religious songs or sing them at kids who don’t share those beliefs. Should the so-called public schools lead patriotic songs about America the Beautiful at kids who live in homeless shelters, or songs about doing the Hokey Pokey at kids in wheelchairs? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/83 "2004-12-12T18:52:51Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Should the so-called public schools lead patriotic songs about America the Beautiful at kids who live in homeless shelters, or songs about doing the Hokey Pokey at kids in wheelchairs? Christ, no. Have you no humanity? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/84 "2004-12-12T18:53:03Z")
> [@JeffB](#): > > Actually, [Hayek’s](http://www.imdb.com/gallery/ss/0285823/Ss/0285823/MX-20.jpg?path=pgallery&path_key=Hayek,%20Salma) birthday is September 2, and yes, I do get off. He meant Friedrich, not Selma. Please say you knew that… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/85 "2004-12-12T18:58:13Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The hell he didn’t. Then provide a quote where he told someone to go BACK to Israel. Be sure the word “back” is in your quote, preferrably between the words “go” and “to Israel”. ---
**Author:** ![infamousmom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d6d6ee/32.png) [@infamousmom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/infamousmom)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/86 "2004-12-12T19:03:03Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Not too surprising from this clown, I guess, and I’m not sure it’s so much antisemitic as just thunderingly arrogant, ignorant and _religiously_ bigoted (as opposed to racially). > > But still. Bill hasn’t been pitted for a couple of months, so fuck you, Bill. It’s not a “Christian country” and you’re still just a low life, heavy breather with a microphone. Yeah baby. Although Christmas in the USA is a \*\*SECULAR \*\*holiday. By order of the United States Constitution. Because, see, Congress shall make no law favoring an establishment of religion, so mandating a holiday for \*religious \*purposes would be… unconstitutional. Who’d-a thunk it. (Not Bill Oh Really, that’s for sure.) :wally ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/87 "2004-12-12T19:05:21Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Have you no humanity? Well, you know we have to make do with the humanity we have, not the humanity we wish we had or the humanity we think we might have in the future. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/88 "2004-12-12T19:21:47Z")
Last Thursday, I was asked by two close friends of mine (Thai immigrants and practicing Buddhists) to accompany their 5th-grade daughter to her public school’s Christmas concert (they had to work in their restaurant). Most of the songs were pretty secular, but they included ‘Silent Night’ and ‘Angels We Have Heard On High’. The reason I’m writing this is because you are the _third_ person I’ve encountered in as many days to assert blithely some form of “The schools can’t even sing religious Christmas carols anymore, dammit!”. In fact, I’m bringing the concert program to work Monday to quiet one of them who insists that “You can’t even _call_ it a Christmas concert!” (FTR, I’m an atheist. I have no kids, but I wouldn’t mind their singing songs in school that mention Jesus. He’s an important historical figure, and I don’t consider religous studies to constitute proseletizing). But people who make false overreaching statements about infringements on Christians’ freedoms, are doing more harm than good in the long run. > [@Shagnasty](#): > > This caller is an adult. These things presumably happened years ago if they ever happened at all. **It is not at all common for public schools to sing religious songs these days (although I am sure that you could find an isolated example if you really digged)**. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/89 "2004-12-12T19:46:49Z")
I have an entirely reasonable suggestion, which is to say, I offer an utterly radical idea with little or no chance of acceptance. I say we, of the left, shrug it off. Let 'em. In instances like this, we unite the Troglodyte Right in ways they wouldn’t be united if it weren’t for us. The Christmas holiday and the predominance of Christianity are a fact, a fact that isn’t going to change anytime soon, regardless. And yet, somehow, we manage to raise little agnostics. And have done. Yes, its a shame that Buddhist, atheist, Muslim kids, etc., have to put up with this crap. But we have bigger fish to fry. Whales, actually. Let’s be tolerant and accepting on this, shrug it off. Political judo. If we aren’t standing there resolutely trying to resist their shove, they will fall forward onto their collective face because they _will_ over-reach. The moderate middle-muddle of American parents don’t want to get into a huge squabble about Santa and Jesus and Christmas parades. We will never, not ever, get them to side with us on these issues. But when the Trog Right starts in on shoe-horning Creationism into the curriculum, which _is_ a fight worth having, we will have more of them on our side by dint of not having alienated them. The matador defeats the bull by evasion, not confrontation. And we got a lotta bull to defeat. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/90 "2004-12-12T20:01:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I have an entirely reasonable suggestion, which is to say, I offer an utterly radical idea with little or no chance of acceptance. I say we, of the left, shrug it off. Good advice, indeed. > [@](#): > > But when the Trog Right starts in on shoe-horning Creationism into the curriculum, which _is_ a fight worth having, we will have more of them on our side by dint of not having alienated them. I doubt it (that you’ll have more of them on your side, that is). ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/91 "2004-12-12T20:31:55Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Should the so-called public schools lead patriotic songs about America the Beautiful at kids who live in homeless shelters, or songs about doing the Hokey Pokey at kids in wheelchairs? I think we quite rightly single out religion as something the state shouldn’t be involved with promoting or celebrating: leaving it to private citizens to do and organize on their own initiative. But then again, that’s a measure to specially protect religion, which maybe IS unfair to everything else. If people don’t respect that protection, and see it as a burden, well, the end of that road is the government corrupting religion. That’s a lot more skin off the back of religious believers than it is off atheists, so hey: you guys know what’s best. I mean, the state does such a great job with taxation, why not get them in on the theology business too? I’m sure they’ll do a fine job. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/92 "2004-12-12T20:38:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I have an entirely reasonable suggestion, which is to say, I offer an utterly radical idea with little or no chance of acceptance. I say we, of the left, shrug it off. > > Let 'em. In instances like this, we unite the Troglodyte Right in ways they wouldn’t be united if it weren’t for us. The Christmas holiday and the predominance of Christianity are a fact, a fact that isn’t going to change anytime soon, regardless. And yet, somehow, we manage to raise little agnostics. And have done. If Europe is any indication, the best way to get rid of religion actually seems to let believers go nuts with this stuff. I mean, nothing so well damages Christianity to be as allowing Christians to freely demonstrate that they lack any consideration for the beliefs or feelings of others. Jewish kids that had to endure the Lord’s Prayer in school by and large weren’t turned into Christians: it made them see Christians as something sour and base that they had to endure. If that’s what Christians want to be to people, no one can ultimately stop them. It’s their choice. If modern Christians really want that to be their legacy and public persona, it really ultimately relfects on nobody but themselves. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/93 "2004-12-12T20:50:12Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > I mean, nothing so well damages Christianity to be as allowing Christians to freely demonstrate that they lack any consideration for the beliefs or feelings of others. Jewish kids that had to endure the Lord’s Prayer in school by and large weren’t turned into Christians: it made them see Christians as something sour and base that they had to endure. If that’s what Christians want to be to people, no one can ultimately stop them. It’s their choice. That’s _exactly_ what I’ve thought for years, which is _exactly_ why I don’t want religion pushed on people. It just alienates them. As I’ve said several times on this thread, there _is_ a case to be made about religious issues in school, and I sure don’t want schools shoving religion down kids’ throats. I also believe that being “left out” (i.e. being treated as if your feelings or beliefs don’t count) is a reasonable issue and one that should be addressed. If the caller on O’Reilly had made _those_ kinds of complaints, they wouldn’t have been a loon. However, they made statements that were over-the-top loony. And just for the record, I have no interest in defending O’Reilly. He’s an arrogant blowhard and often a dickhead, and I’ll _never_ forget the phone sex harassment thing. ::shudder:: I don’t really give a shit about him either way. But the fact is, just because he _is_ a blowhard dickhead doesn’t mean that people who get offended by something he says are always right. You’ve got to _prove_ that he was offensive or out of line by judging what actually happened. Even blowhard dickheads can have moments where they are not 100% wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/94 "2004-12-12T21:18:21Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > That’s _exactly_ what I’ve thought for years, which is _exactly_ why I don’t want religion pushed on people. It just alienates them. As I’ve said several times on this thread, there _is_ a case to be made about religious issues in school, and I sure don’t want schools shoving religion down kids’ throats. I also believe that being “left out” (i.e. being treated as if your feelings or beliefs don’t count) is a reasonable issue and one that should be addressed. > > If the caller on O’Reilly had made _those_ kinds of complaints, they wouldn’t have been a loon. However, they made statements that were over-the-top loony. > > And just for the record, I have no interest in defending O’Reilly. He’s an arrogant blowhard and often a dickhead, and I’ll _never_ forget the phone sex harassment thing. ::shudder:: I don’t really give a shit about him either way. But the fact is, just because he _is_ a blowhard dickhead doesn’t mean that people who get offended by something he says are always right. You’ve got to _prove_ that he was offensive or out of line by judging what actually happened. Even blowhard dickheads can have moments where they are not 100% wrong. Right on. I hope that the people that are responding now are actually reading the whole transcript. If someone can’t see that it is loony, then well, you know what that means. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/95 "2004-12-12T22:56:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Let 'em. In instances like this, we unite the Troglodyte Right in ways they wouldn’t be united if it weren’t for us. At last — comprehension of the problem from someone on the left. With notable exceptions like yourself, you people are your own worst enemies. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/96 "2004-12-12T22:59:26Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > I mean, the state does such a great job with taxation, why not get them in on the theology business too? I’m sure they’ll do a fine job. Where were you recently when I was arguing that the so-called “public schools” are in fact government schools? Just so you know, you won’t automatically get cooties or something by agreeing with me now and then. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/97 "2004-12-13T00:14:47Z")
it’s such a hoot to see an atheist like DtC claim that giving a candy cane is “proseltyzing”. Didn’t we just have a thread in IMHO where loads of atheists/agnostics were saying that Christmas is not automatically a religious holiday…that lots of them participate in some of the Christmas traditions (like giving candy canes…exchanging presents)? Let me get this straight…Joe Atheist gives his kid a candy cane…NOT proseltyzing. 10 yeard old Susie Jones gives her classmate a candy cane…proseltyzing. Um, yeah. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/98 "2004-12-13T03:04:18Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Where were you recently when I was arguing that the so-called “public schools” are in fact government schools? Depends on the specificity of terminology: I generally understand government to be a sub-section of public, given that government exists at the expense of the public. Government schools are funded by the public at large under the republican authority ostensibly granted by the public under our constitution. What is not and cannot be taken by the government I generally refer to as civil society. > [@](#): > > Just so you know, you won’t automatically get cooties or something by agreeing with me now and then. Point taken. But then, I only read threads sporadically. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/99 "2004-12-13T03:59:02Z")
Jew here. I think the caller was a loon. > [@John Mace](#): > > > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > > > The ADL agrees with my take on this. > > Proves nothing. They’re in the business of agreeing with stuff like this. Exactly. Abe Foxman makes it his mission to cultivate the bullshit notion collective victimhood and oppression. The man has no shame and he will jump at anything that furthers his goals. I’m a strong supporter of the separation of church and state and I don’t think that any religious holiday should be observed by a public institution. But this guy has a problem with proselytization by private Christian groups and, well, the thing is, _every_ religion needs to indoctrinate outsiders, otherwise its numbers would begin to wane. Sure, it can be annoying to brush off the Jehovah’s Witnesses, but it’s not as if they’re violating your rights. That guy needs to get the fuck over himself. > [@Liberal](#): > > He meant Friedrich, not Selma. Please say you knew that… Hell, I get off to my Hayek poster every night. Right after I finish making my Rand and Mises dolls kiss. Over an issue of the Objectivist Newsletter. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416/100 "2004-12-13T04:06:06Z")
Not all religions are evangelical. Judaism isn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-again/279416.md?page=6)