# Bill O'Reilly: Christianity not a religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2012, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548 "2012-11-30T06:56:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/61 "2012-12-01T16:09:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yeah, but Christmas = / = Christianity. I tell people that I (an atheist) celebrate Christmas, because Christmas for the most part has lost its religious aspects and is pretty much secular now. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/62 "2012-12-01T21:28:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You don’t have to believe in miracles to accept the Four Noble Truths, but if you believe in karma or reincarnation or you believe that Buddha was born out of his mother’s side after a prophetic dream and immediately after birth he started walking around and whatnot, then yes, you believe in something supernatural. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’ll buy this though. The core tenets of Buddhism don’t depend upon supernatural assumptions, but there’s been a lot of stuff tacked on over the ages (and probably starting from the beginning). And if reincarnation doesn’t exist, the philosophy becomes less compelling, though certainly not unimportant IMO. I would quibble though and say there’s a purely secular version of karma, though in practice it may and probably will reflect some extra-empirical claims. And there’s an additional twist. If you accept the reality of suffering, no-self, and karma -and there are sound secular reasons for all three- then a form of reincarnation becomes a logical conclusion. Tamping down suffering becomes a project crossing all sentient agents, and just as we over-weight the link between our current self and that which existed say 3.2225 years ago, we under-weight our causal linkages with others in the present and future. Take an objective stance for a moment and relax one’s attachment to one’s own suffering and one is left with indifference between more or less local suffering. Reincarnation in this view represents shared experience, something which while not directly observable is mostly reasonable. The preceding follows from the Buddhist framework. I have no idea the extent to which it operates in actual Buddhist practice. I understand that some of the latter contains supernatural elements. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/63 "2012-12-03T02:28:32Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > Sure, but it’s a Christian holiday and the degree to which it’s been stripped of its religious meaning is kind of a bellwether of the general diluting of Christianity. Or maybe it’s a Pagan holiday and the degree to which it has been stripped of its religious meaning is kind of a bellwether of the general diluting of Paganism. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/64 "2012-12-03T03:41:09Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > I have no love for O’Reilly or his conclusions. (Atheists are “fascists”?) > > But him and his arguments aside, isn’t there some truth to the idea in the thread title? Every year we have a thread debating whether Christmas isn’t more or less a secular holiday by now. Christianity acts as an actual religion for _some_ people, but lots more _practice_ it as a self-defined philosophy with a little religious window dressing for good show. “I believe that Jesus really wants me to be like _this_…” Seems like a lot of people choose whatever ideas they like, tack on Jesus, and call it a day. > > Anyway, even if all that’s true it doesn’t change much about how the government should react to Christianity, or any other religion. I would be ok with that if they’d support their opinion with evidence or when proven factually wrong they didn’t just retreat too _how dare you can’t denigrate my faith_! ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/65 "2012-12-03T10:07:12Z")
> [@](#): > > **Rodgers01** : Sure, but it’s a Christian holiday and the degree to which it’s been stripped of its religious meaning is kind of a bellwether of the general diluting of Christianity. Christmas is _both_ a religious holiday and a secular holiday – with some pagan traditions thrown in. Most Christians seem to choose a combination of the two. I don’t think it’s losing its religious meaning at all – at least to those people who choose to take some time to focus on the religious meaning. And those who view it as secular only in their lives are not diluting Christianity in any way. Individuals have personal choices about how or if they want to observe Christmas. They just can’t force their views on anyone else and expect much success. I think a lot of the problem is that some Christians (those who buy into the War on Christmas BS) want to force their religious viewpoints onto everyone else. There is no War on Christmas. Those who think there is should make a list of the ways that other people’s individual viewpoints have somehow suppressed or damaged them as individuals. By the way, I don’t know when “Happy Holidays” or “Season’s Greetings” was first used, but those words were on a lot of the Christmas cards we got back in the Forties and Fifties. This was in a town of 2,000 people consisting of mostly Christians of different denominations, a very few atheists, some agnostics, and one person we called “the Catholic woman.” We often said, “Merry Christmas,” but when we chose one of the other greetings, it was a normal and natural thing to do. We didn’t change it to be polite and more enclusive. Everyone knew what “holiday” and “season” that people were referring to. (I do approve of using those phrases to be considerate of other people’s feelings now, but I live in an ethnically complex city.) Merry Christmas, y’all. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/66 "2012-12-03T12:37:38Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > O’Reilley’s an intelligent, educated guy, but he sure can be a moron when he wants to. > > As an agnostic, though, I wish people like Silverman wouldn’t argue against things like traditional holidays. Strictly speaking, he’s correct. I can’t argue his point, from theory. But practically speaking, stuff like that just rallies the Bible-clutching masses against us unGodly heathens, and sets the cause back a decade or so. > > In any case Christmas in the US these days is more of a commercial enterprise than a religious holiday. And to think it was centuries before there was a celebration of the Birth of Jesus, I wonder how Christianiy survived? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/67 "2012-12-03T15:42:36Z")
As another atheist, this sentimental little tune pretty well sums up my take on Christmas: > [@Tim Minchin](#): > > I really like Christmas > It’s sentimental, I know, but I just really like it > I am hardly religious > I’d rather break bread with Dawkins than Desmond Tutu, to be honest > > And yes, I have all of the usual objections > To consumerism, the commercialisation of an ancient religion > To the westernisation of a dead Palestinian > Press-ganged into selling Playstations and beer > But I still really like it – [“White Wine In The Sun”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCNvZqpa-7Q) ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/68 "2012-12-03T15:49:56Z")
I wonder how it would go over if we decided to take him at his word and remove the tax exempt status from all the churches, eliminate military chaplains, etc. I’m sure a lot of Christians might have a problem with that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/69 "2012-12-03T16:32:06Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > Sure, but it’s a Christian holiday and the degree to which it’s been stripped of its religious meaning is kind of a bellwether of the general diluting of Christianity. Well, yeah, except that it isn’t. Christmas is primarily about shopping, and was never really about religion (or at least not about Christianity) anyway. Christianity is still primarily about accepting Jesus as one’s lord and savior and all that stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/70 "2012-12-03T21:44:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, yeah, except that it isn’t. Christmas is primarily about shopping, and was never really about religion (or at least not about Christianity) anyway. > > Christianity is still primarily about accepting Jesus as one’s lord and savior and all that stuff. Where I live if non-Christians didn’t do any Christmas shopping the malls would be in deep doo-doo. I agree that there is now an almost total disconnect between the religious holiday and the secular holiday. People are allowed to go to church even if they haven’t bought anything. And plenty of people who never set foot in a church buy Christmas presents also. I guess the war on Xmas people are saying that the true meaning of Christmas is the sales figures. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/71 "2012-12-03T22:45:35Z")
I want to know what the secular support for the reality of karma is supposed to be. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/72 "2012-12-03T22:55:03Z")
Whatever Christianity is, it is no philosophy. Some religions could make an arguable claim to that status, but not Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/73 "2012-12-03T23:18:59Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > By the way, I don’t know when “Happy Holidays” or “Season’s Greetings” was first used, but those words were on a lot of the Christmas cards we got back in the Forties and Fifties. This was in a town of 2,000 people consisting of mostly Christians of different denominations I grew up in a slightly larger town in the 70s, and I don’t remember if I heard the phrase then or in Sarasota FL in the mid 80s, but I never took it to mean anything but a shortened way of saying “Merry Christmas _and_ a Happy New Year!” The thought that it was meant to extend to Festihannukwanzaa never occurred to me really. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/74 "2012-12-03T23:32:08Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > People are allowed to go to church even if they haven’t bought anything. _Purge_ the heretics!! Unclean! Unclean! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/75 "2012-12-03T23:48:56Z")
I don’t get the argument at all. I can’t find any mainstream definition of Christianity that doesn’t prominently use the word “religion.” What am I missing? > **[Definition of CHRISTIANITY](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Christianity)** > > the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies; conformity to the Christian religion; the practice of Christianity… See the full definition > **[Christianity Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/Christianity)** > > Christianity definition, the Christian religion, including the Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox churches. See more. > **[Christianity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity)** > > Christianity is an Abrahamic monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. It is the world's largest and most widespread religion with roughly 2.4 billion followers representing one-third of the global population. Its adherents, known as Christians, are estimated to make up a majority of the population in 157 countries and territories, and believe that Jesus is the Son of God, whose coming as the Messiah was prophesied in the Hebrew Bible (called the Old Tes Chri... > **[Christianity](https://www.thefreedictionary.com/christianity)** > > Definition, Synonyms, Translations of Christianity by The Free Dictionary > **[Christianity](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/christianity?q=christianity)** > > 1. a religion based on belief in God and the life and teachings of Jesus… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/76 "2012-12-03T23:52:03Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > I don’t get the argument at all. I can’t find any mainstream definition of Christianity that doesn’t prominently use the word “religion.” What am I missing? > > [CHRISTIANITY Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/christianity) > [CHRISTIANITY Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Christianity) > [Christianity - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity) > [Christianity - definition of Christianity by The Free Dictionary](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/christianity) > [http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/christianity?q=christianity](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/christianity?q=christianity) That’s what you get for using left-wing liberal mainstream dictionaries. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/77 "2012-12-04T00:31:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The situation for nonbelievers in America is slowly getting better over time, so it’s hardly possible for it to be set way back every time some non-Christian group “goes after” Christianity or Christmas or is accused of doing so. And I think you’re putting the blame in the wrong place: it belongs to the Christian groups who demonize nonbelievers because it’s a useful and expedient way to rally the faithful, not with nonbelievers who ask the government to follow its own laws (even when they go a little too far in that effort). Setbacks don’t mean there is no progress. Silverman is a whacko who does more harm than good for atheists and agnostics. He does’t represent me, that’s for sure. Nonetheless, there is progress for us atheists and agnostics. > [@Musicat](#): > > [Hard to believe there’s any intelligence there,](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/06/oreilly-god-causes-tides_n_805262.html) unless it was brought in by the tides along with the flotsam.Apparently being a moron, an idiot and a blowhard is a prerequisite for having a TV show. Not much intelligence on display on either side, in that particular battle. But I’ve heard him speak intelligently, and I liked his book “Killing Lincoln”, which I think hit its mark very well (intending to read more like a thriller and less like a historical tome). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/78 "2012-12-04T00:37:30Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Not much intelligence on display on either side, in that particular battle. But I’ve heard him speak intelligently, and I liked his book “Killing Lincoln”, which I think hit its mark very well (intending to read more like a thriller and less like a historical tome). He _co_-wrote that book, and his co-author Martin Dugard has written several history books. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/79 "2012-12-04T01:05:48Z")
[Partial transcript](http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/12/01/15597368-this-week-in-god?lite) of Billo’s remarks, courtesy of Steve Benen: > [@](#): > > Christianity is not an organized religion… Christianity is a philosophy. You don’t have to believe Jesus is God in order to admire his view on life. > > Millions of Muslims admire Jesus as a prophet. In fact the United States was founded on Judeo-Christian philosophy, that’s what shaped our constitutional tenets. Again if you are stone-cold dumb and don’t understand the difference between an organized church and a philosophy, I cannot help you. Sounds like something a deist Unitarian with an attitude would say. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548/80 "2012-12-04T01:09:18Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Setbacks don’t mean there is no progress. If it sets atheists back a decade every time someone supposedly attacks Christmas, there shouldn’t be any progress. My point is that your comment is total hyperbole (and it does blame the wrong person). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-oreilly-christianity-not-a-religion/642548.md?page=5)