# Bill the feminist, sex workers speaking for their damn selves, and assorted feminist issues........
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [August 1, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112 "2011-08-01T23:55:51Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@corkboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corkboard)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/41 "2011-08-02T20:49:51Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#):
>
> Of the four strippers I know, one is a single mom (high school graduate but no skills- dancing is an excellent way to pay for she and her son to live while affording her a lot of time to spend with her son) and three are in law school. One of the ones in law school is actually wanting to be an attorney who specializes in working with people in the sex industry.
I have a question, which I’m asking without any judgement, just legitimate curiosity- regarding the first friend you mentioned, and what I suspect are others like her in the industry- some education but no skills. What does she plan to do in a few years when gravity has set in and the thigh-highs aren’t filling up with singles the way they used to? If she’s been a really spectacular success I guess she’ll have enough to support herself and her son, but I’d be surprised. I’m just wondering what kind of career an aging, unskilled stripper would find satisfying after years of making her living that way.
---
### Author:  [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/42 "2011-08-02T21:07:14Z")
> [@corkboard](#):
>
> I have a question, which I’m asking without any judgement, just legitimate curiosity- regarding the first friend you mentioned, and what I suspect are others like her in the industry- some education but no skills. What does she plan to do in a few years when gravity has set in and the thigh-highs aren’t filling up with singles the way they used to? If she’s been a really spectacular success I guess she’ll have enough to support herself and her son, but I’d be surprised. I’m just wondering what kind of career an aging, unskilled stripper would find satisfying after years of making her living that way.
The strip club is an eat or be eaten world. Even if you are in your physical and mental prime, it’s not an easy way to make a living and anyone who’s been in the business more than a year or two is going to be the type of personality who gets pretty creative when shit gets spare. No, I’m not saying every stripper is an entrepreneurial genius, but being resourceful and making the most of scraps is stripper bread and butter.
How many girls have I known who stripped and actually saved enough to take care of themselves for life? One, maybe, and that’s because she’s also a financial wiz who has made some great investments over the years. The rest are just like everyone else, we spend what we make. That’s not just strippers, that’s everyone.
So, no, I can’t tell you what the aging stripper stereotype does after dancing, because we all do different things. But it’s the honest truth that I believe any woman who can make it in that world can make it anywhere she needs to.
---
### Author:  [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/43 "2011-08-02T21:16:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> If I can hesitantly ask a question…?
>
> It seems to be at least marginally relevant what percentage of strip clubs, and strippers therein, perform sex acts as opposed to simply erotic dancing.
>
> If I understand **Indygrrl** , the claim from her is that strip clubs in which the dancers also are available for sex acts are a rarity, not the rule; one part of the claim from the “feminist” blog is that they are the standard.
>
> There also may be some difference of opinion as to what constitutes a sex act – can I propose as a working definition that a sex act, in this context, is when there is body-to-body direct contact between the dancer and the patron, with the intent to cause orgasm for the patron?
>
> Is that definition reasonable?
>
> Under that definition, are sex acts available in most strip clubs?
Yes, sex acts are available in most strip clubs. To the degree JamieMcGee said? Not like he thinks, but sure, some places are more “high mileage” than others. Places I’ve worked, the most common “sex act” is probably a dry hump to ejaculation, maybe some forbidden (lol) two way touching, rather than just the dancer touching the guy. Any woman who has worked in clubs for any length of time since about 9/11 is a liar if she says she never did “extras” at one time or another dancing.
This is where the geriatric strippers like me get off on our rants about how much the business has changed, these young girls don’t know about sales, blah blah blah. But it’s aggravating because it’s true! There’s a common misconception amongst Stripperella: The New Generation that the more you do for a guy, the more you’ll make. Sounds logical, right? Well, it’s exactly the opposite. The LESS you do the more you will make, and that’s every customer, every time. But I’ve wasted a lot of breath trying to tell newbies that, and it’s just not easy to explain to them why exactly it works counterintuitively like that. They ask me how I made decent with five guys in the club that night, assuming Andy must be doing some SERIOUS shit in the champagne room. That’s when I try to explain, and then say fuck it because I had to learn all of it on MY own and if they don’t wanna hear it the first time I’m not repeating myself, lol.
Whew. Can you tell I’ve ranted about that one before?😃
Also, you know how some industries (nursing comes to mind), they say “nurses (or whoever) eat their young?” Strippers eat their young. And that’s why I can’t help laughing when people talk about all the big money we make so easily. I just shake my head and think, “dumbfuck, you will never know what we go through to make that “great” money.”
---
### Author:  [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/44 "2011-08-02T21:23:52Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#):
>
> Strange- none of my Detroit friends have ever mentioned this fact. But hey, _everybody knows._
Sorry, Diosa, but in places like Detroit, South Florida everyone does know. I can’t say they all sell sex outrightly and the clubs are brothels, but high mileage, extras, and arrangements for after hours are all a common element of the strip club world now. And I hate it, but that’s just how it is. It’s but one of the reasons I haven’t worked in a club in almost a year.
---
### Author:  [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/45 "2011-08-02T21:24:12Z")
> [@corkboard](#):
>
> What does she plan to do in a few years when gravity has set in and the thigh-highs aren’t filling up with singles the way they used to?
Well, I don’t think dancing was ever her life long career choice through retirement- just because she’s a stripper doesn’t mean she’s retarded.
I imagine she plans on finishing her degree (she’s one of those take a class here and there, not terribly serious folks) and getting one of them fancy “real jobs” everybody is talking about.
\*\*I’m making a funny, of course. I say “real jobs” in jest.
---
### Author:  [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/46 "2011-08-02T21:26:25Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#):
>
> Well, I don’t think dancing was ever her life long career choice through retirement- just because she’s a stripper doesn’t mean she’s retarded.
>
> I imagine she plans on finishing her degree (she’s one of those take a class here and there, not terribly serious folks) and getting one of them fancy “real jobs” everybody is talking about.
How will she explain away what she was doing before that, though?
---
### Author:  [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/47 "2011-08-02T21:26:41Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#):
>
> Any woman who has worked in clubs for any length of time since about 9/11 is a liar if she says she never did “extras” at one time or another dancing.
9/11? What does that have to do with anything?
---
### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/48 "2011-08-02T21:29:52Z")
I remember now! You posted similar comments in this thread.
[Are strippers almost always hookers if the money is good enough?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=166777)
That was an eye opener.
Glad you eschew the victim context to sexual entertainment work, people do way too much of that these days for the choices they make.
---
### Author:  [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/49 "2011-08-02T21:40:01Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#):
>
> How will she explain away what she was doing before that, though?
Que? What do you mean? How will she someday explain to her child that mommy took off her top to pay the bills? Probably the way any parent does when they explain a less than traditional situation to their kids. Plus, I don’t think she finds anything morally questionable about dancing (nor should she).
Or do you mean how will she explain it to her future employer? I don’t know, but my law school stripper friend put it on her application and in her admissions essay- during her interview, they told her they called her back because of the unique perspective her background gave her. Shaking your titties for a few years isn’t exactly the end of the world for your career.
---
### Author:  [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/50 "2011-08-02T21:43:30Z")
> [@bup](#):
>
> 9/11? What does that have to do with anything?
It was like a switch got flipped, and everything suddenly got quid pro quo. And I never put it together with 9/11 until I started going on my stripper messageboards and talking about this stuff with other women who had been in the business as long or longer than me. So yeah, stripper history gets told in terms of “before 9/11” and “after 9/11.”
---
### Author:  [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/51 "2011-08-02T21:51:30Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#):
>
> Que? What do you mean? How will she someday explain to her child that mommy took off her top to pay the bills? Probably the way any parent does when they explain a less than traditional situation to their kids. Plus, I don’t think she finds anything morally questionable about dancing (nor should she).
>
> Or do you mean how will she explain it to her future employer? I don’t know, but my law school stripper friend put it on her application and in her admissions essay- during her interview, they told her they called her back because of the unique perspective her background gave her. Shaking your titties for a few years isn’t exactly the end of the world for your career.
Or she’ll say she worked at a nightclub, or was a waitress, or any number of things. Since when it is a rule that parents have to be honest with their kids?😛
I will say this, the one problem with years of dancing is the huge hole it leaves on your resume. I’ve gotten creative with descriptions of my “sales” job, but I’m not putting Titty Gaga on my application.😃
---
### Author:  [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/52 "2011-08-02T22:01:59Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#):
>
> Or do you mean how will she explain it to her future employer? I don’t know, but my law school stripper friend put it on her application and in her admissions essay- during her interview, they told her they called her back because of the unique perspective her background gave her. Shaking your titties for a few years isn’t exactly the end of the world for your career.
I meant to employers – the resume hole that **Indygrrl** referred to.
---
### Author:  [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/53 "2011-08-02T22:03:44Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#):
>
> Yes, sex acts are available in most strip clubs. To the degree JamieMcGee said? Not like he thinks, but sure, some places are more “high mileage” than others. Places I’ve worked, the most common “sex act” is probably a dry hump to ejaculation, maybe some forbidden (lol) two way touching, rather than just the dancer touching the guy. Any woman who has worked in clubs for any length of time since about 9/11 is a liar if she says she never did “extras” at one time or another dancing.
>
> This is where the geriatric strippers like me get off on our rants about how much the business has changed, these young girls don’t know about sales, blah blah blah. But it’s aggravating because it’s true! There’s a common misconception amongst Stripperella: The New Generation that the more you do for a guy, the more you’ll make. Sounds logical, right? Well, it’s exactly the opposite. The LESS you do the more you will make, and that’s every customer, every time. But I’ve wasted a lot of breath trying to tell newbies that, and it’s just not easy to explain to them why exactly it works counterintuitively like that. They ask me how I made decent with five guys in the club that night, assuming Andy must be doing some SERIOUS shit in the champagne room. That’s when I try to explain, and then say fuck it because I had to learn all of it on MY own and if they don’t wanna hear it the first time I’m not repeating myself, lol.
I want to hear it and I’m a fan of counterintuitive thinking. Even though it’s not easy, would you explain why it works like that?
---
### Author:  [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/54 "2011-08-02T22:12:57Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#):
>
> I meant to employers – the resume hole that **Indygrrl** referred to.
I suppose that she can either do what **Indygrrl** does or she could just be honest. Depending on the job or employer, they may not cast some moral judgment on her being a dancer.
---
### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/55 "2011-08-02T22:35:54Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#):
>
> I want to hear it and I’m a fan of counterintuitive thinking. Even though it’s not easy, would you explain why it works like that?
A woman who knows how to initiate and maintain a seductive tease mode is going to last longer and pull in more green than girls who figure they have to do something concrete to sustain interest. However, in fairness to the women that can’t do this it really is more of an art than a science.
---
### Author:  [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/56 "2011-08-02T22:36:14Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#):
>
> I want to hear it and I’m a fan of counterintuitive thinking. Even though it’s not easy, would you explain why it works like that?
I’m no psychologist, but I think it has something to do with wanting what you can’t have. If I take you for a dance and do all my best moves and mindfucks on the first song, why would you ever need a second one? The trick is to keep 'em wanting more. And it’s also about the antiquated idea that women are supposed to say no and making you want things they’ll never give you in reality.
The strip club is a chess game (or something, haha). As a dancer I have to keep the upper hand, give the guy enough to make him want me there, not leave him long enough to lose interest and go to someone else, and then milk him dry. It’s a fine balance, and I’m a delicate genius and have studied hard at the art of money maker shaking.😉
---
### Author:  [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/57 "2011-08-02T22:44:38Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#):
>
> Sorry, Diosa, but in places like Detroit, South Florida everyone does know. I can’t say they all sell sex outrightly and the clubs are brothels, but high mileage, extras, and arrangements for after hours are all a common element of the strip club world now. And I hate it, but that’s just how it is. It’s but one of the reasons I haven’t worked in a club in almost a year.
I’m honestly curious how you go about finding a club where any of this happens, or making it happen once you have. As I said–except for one dump–at literally every club I’ve been at, the strippers have disclaimed any knowledge that anyone is doing anything more than the standard 1- or 2-song lap dances, no matter how subtly or non-cop-y I asked.
Obviously I’m not asking for specifics, given board rules.
---
### Author:  [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/58 "2011-08-02T23:16:46Z")
Zeriel, I’d imagine anyone who is remotely internet savvy could get reliable information on this, and probably a map drawn for them. How you interact in a club to make that happen becomes clear with minimal observation.
---
### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/59 "2011-08-02T23:55:13Z")
Whip it out and wrap some twenties around it, of course. 😉
Incidentally, I stand corrected. Apologies, **jamiemcgarry**.
---
### Author:  [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bill-the-feminist-sex-workers-speaking-for-their-damn-selves-and-assorted-feminist-issues/591112/60 "2011-08-03T00:31:10Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#):
>
> Zeriel, I’d imagine anyone who is remotely internet savvy could get reliable information on this, and probably a map drawn for them. How you interact in a club to make that happen becomes clear with minimal observation.
In other words, then, either it’s not happening everywhere or else I wasn’t very observant in my early twenties? 😛
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