# Billie Jean King proved that women were at least as good as men at sports. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 5, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204 "2013-01-05T23:28:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/21 "2013-01-06T19:16:38Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > It has nothing to do with how their brains are wired. Smaller muscle mass and a higher bodyfat percentage has a lot more to do with it. > ETA: women also tend to have a lower VO2 Max I don’t think you can say one way or another for sure. What we do know for a fact is that fmri’s show significant consistent differences between male and female brain activation for some tasks. For example, for one task females showed activation in both hemispheres but males for the same task showed activation in one hemisphere. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/22 "2013-01-06T20:20:48Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’ve heard it argued that the prize money in Grand Slam tennis (or Wimbledon, at least) actually favors women. The top prize is the same for men and women, but the women play less tennis to get there, two-out-of-three rather than three-out-of-five. On a per-set or per-point basis, the women make more. I think the lighter workload also makes it easier for them to compete in singles and doubles at the same event, with the chance to earn money in both. True dat. They play less tennis, against weaker opposition, and put fewer bums on seats, but it would be _unfair_ to reward them less highly than the men. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/23 "2013-01-06T20:26:43Z")
> [@](#): > > When Serena Williams Played ATP’s Karsten Braasch > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, back to our story. Legend has it that the Williams sisters barged into the ATP player’s lounge brashly telling everyone on site that they thought they could beat the 200th-ranked male player and looking for a match to prove it. Braasch, who was ranked 203 at the time, took them up on it. He had gotten as high as 38 in the world, but by this point was a journeyman reaching the end of his tenure. > > Now, being Karsten Braasch, he trained for the match by playing a round of golf and drinking a six-pack of “shanties”, which I’m told are beer mixed with lemonade. Sounds dreadful. Braasch went up 5-0 against Serena when her sister showed up and challenged him, so Braasch ended up beating both, 6-1 over Serena and 6-2 over Venus. (Now, in fairness Venus as 17 years old then, and Serena 16). Observers claim Braasch didn’t hit the ball hard, thinking that would be unfair, but hit with a lot of spin, thinking the sisters wouldn’t see that on the women’s tour. The sisters repeatedly hit balls that would have been winners on the WTA, but Braasch routinely retrieved them. [http://www.fawcette.net/2012/10/when-serena-williams-played-atps-karsten-braasch.html](http://www.fawcette.net/2012/10/when-serena-williams-played-atps-karsten-braasch.html) ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/24 "2013-01-06T20:30:49Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Plus, (male) viewers like the tits, arses and the grunting. Boosts the ratings no-end, so the _advertisers_ are happy as pigs in shit. I’m don’t watch much tennis, but the only player I’ve seen with T&A worth a second look is Serena Williams (although several have pretty faces), and I _ **HATE** _ the grunting. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/25 "2013-01-06T20:46:05Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Plus, (male) viewers like the tits, arses and the grunting. Boosts the ratings no-end, so the _advertisers_ are happy as pigs in shit. > > 😃 I’ll confess only to admiring the legs. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/26 "2013-01-06T20:52:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Is there even such a thing as a male-only sports league? I’m pretty sure that there’s no rule against women competing in the NFL, or MLB, or NBA: Those leagues _already_ feature only the best athletes from the broadest talent pool. It’s just that the best athletes from the broadest talent pool are all, 100%, men. I think you’re right. I mentioned Annika Sorenstam above. For those who don’t know, she was by far the best woman golfer in the world around ten years ago. She was given a sponsor’s exemption to play in a medium-quality men’s event, and missed the cut (failed to qualify for the final two rounds of the tournament). Michelle Wie also tried and failed to make a cut on the PGA tour, several times (she used to be a lot better than she is now; it would be a sad joke for her to try today). If memory serves, she did make a cut in some minor men’s event in Korea. The only woman to ever make a cut on the PGA tour was Babe Zaharias, but not only was she probably the best woman athlete who ever lived, she did it in 1945, when the PGA tour was comprised mostly of 4-F’s who were judged unfit for service. It’s no coincidence that Byron Nelson set his unbreakable records that year, playing against extremely weak fields. Golf sponsors are always trying to generate crowd interest, and would welcome a woman who had a legitimate chance to contend. But in nearly a century of experience, only one woman has made the cut on the PGA tour, and her best finish was 33rd place. Hitting a golf ball is an athletic move, so IMO golf is a sport, but it’s about as close as you can get to not being a sport, as some of the overweight, chain-smoking tournament winners attest. If women can’t compete in golf, then I don’t know where they can, other than solo, judged events like ice skating or gymnastics. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/27 "2013-01-06T21:10:22Z")
Billie Jean King helped demonstrate that women deserve to be taken seriously as athletes and that they shouldn’t be dismissed or denied a chance to play sports based on gender. She didn’t prove women can compete on equal footing with men in sports, and she wasn’t trying to. I don’t think even she would have claimed she could beat the best men’s players of that era - guys like Jimmy Connors. In addition to being one of the best tennis players ever she accomplished a lot socially and helped get the WTA started. Few athletes of either gender can say they did as much on or off the field, nevermind both. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/28 "2013-01-06T21:48:10Z")
Many people are going to argue the point but I don’t think you can attribute this entirely to physical causes. People have already mentioned billiards and auto racing but you can also include chess - competitions where physical advantages are insignificant but women still aren’t competed at the same level as men. Maybe there are psychological factors. Competing at the very top level requires an almost complete devotion to the sport and maybe women are too rational to devote that much attention to a game. Or maybe it’s social. Girls aren’t encouraging to compete the way boys are. Girls certainly can compete but they don’t have the same support system that drives and rewards them for it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/29 "2013-01-06T23:14:50Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > What we do know for a fact is that fmri’s show significant consistent differences between male and female brain activation for some tasks. For example, for one task females showed activation in both hemispheres but males for the same task showed activation in one hemisphere. Yes; female brains are “wired” very differently and work differently even when doing something they are as good at or better than men. Given how different they are it’s rather amazing than men and women come across as similar to each other as they do. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/30 "2013-01-06T23:25:04Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Plus, (male) viewers like the tits, arses and the grunting. Boosts the ratings no-end, so the _advertisers_ are happy as pigs in shit. > > 😃 I like the _grunting_ grunting once in awhile, but it’s a bit too ubiquitous for my tastes. The _screaming_ OTOH is definitely too much – that would be impressive if the ladies were in a pre-gunpowder warrior movie, and then, just one scream really puts the point across. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/31 "2013-01-06T23:41:15Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Debatable. Michelle Mouton did extremely well in a few seasons with the Audi rally team, and finished second in the world championship in 1982. And Shirley Muldowney won the NHRA (drag racing) Top Fuel championship three times. apples and oranges. Long distance track racing is a very physical sport. Drag racing is one of timing. The only time I saw Shirley Mulldowney racing she was solid off the line in both lanes all day long. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/32 "2013-01-06T23:58:11Z")
Another point; men are known to be more _variable_ than women. Which among other things, means that comparing men and women in general is not the same thing as comparing the best (or worst) men and women; it’s entirely possible that even with something that women are as a whole better then men, the very best will _still_ be men. And that’s exactly the kind of results that comparing sports will give you; who’s the _best_. And considering that the _other_ side of the equation is that men are more likely to be sick (mentally as well as physically) or dead (including not even making it to birth), it doesn’t make a good argument for men being “better”. Maybe for a _particular_ man who won the genetic lottery, but not men in general. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/34 "2013-01-07T00:07:23Z")
Moving over to the GameRoom. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/35 "2013-01-07T01:11:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > apples and oranges. Long distance track racing is a very physical sport. Drag racing is one of timing. The only time I saw Shirley Mulldowney racing she was solid off the line in both lanes all day long. And rallying? Some of those events (especially at the time Mouton was competing) make Le Mans drivers look like punks. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/36 "2013-01-07T02:14:48Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Tennis is still segregated by gender so that the top women have a shot at prize money; if it weren’t segregated then no woman would make a thin dime. Simple as. As John McEnroe has said, the 300th ranked man in tennis could beat the #1 women in the world in straight sets 9 out of 10 times. That’s how much higher level the mens tennis game is compared to the women. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/37 "2013-01-07T03:06:08Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > True dat. They play less tennis, against weaker opposition, and put fewer bums on seats, but it would be _unfair_ to reward them less highly than the men. However, a big point people are ignoring in the tennis issue is that women tend to have more volleys per point then men. A 3 set women’s match can approach and even exceed the time it takes for a 5 set men’s match. A 5-set women’s match would last too long. So if you look at a per hour basis, the payoff actually isn’t that different, nor should it be. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/38 "2013-01-07T03:13:38Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > It has nothing to do with how their brains are wired. Smaller muscle mass and a higher bodyfat percentage has a lot more to do with it. > ETA: women also tend to have a lower VO2 Max > [@RaftPeople](#): > > I don’t think you can say one way or another for sure. > > What we do know for a fact is that fmri’s show significant consistent differences between male and female brain activation for some tasks. For example, for one task females showed activation in both hemispheres but males for the same task showed activation in one hemisphere. It has a ton to do with wiring. Men evolved in a certain way and competition was core to their success. Men are superior to women in lots of things that aren’t dictated by muscle mass and size. There are a lot of sports and games that rely heavily on dexterity, certain types of mental aptitude and hand-eye coordination that men also dominate. The reason for this is cultural. Men self select for these things. It’s also probably genetic and physiological. There’s some things that the male mind and body are just adept at. It’s not an insurmountable advantage, certainly less insurmountable than something like basketball, but it’s still a tough road to hoe. Men and women are different in many ways. The tasks that people tend to keep score for tend to be tasks that men are better at. Whether it’s the chicken or the egg doesn’t change the fact that it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![notfrommensa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@notfrommensa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notfrommensa)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/39 "2013-01-07T05:16:04Z")
Annika Sorenstam tried one time in a PGAT Tournament, and failed to make the cut by 4 shots. Under enormous pressure with millions of eyeballs. She was dominating the Ladies game at the time, and I think if given more opportunities she could have made a cut on the PGAT maybe 25% of the time. The talent gap between her and the best Men golfers was considerable, but I think if she had tried, she could have had a journeyman type career in Men’s golf. And she was by no means a freak womens golfer. She was average height who worked tremondously hard at her game. Put her work ethic into a tremondously physically gifted body (like Michelle Wie) I think she could have done very well in Men’s golf. And here is some related evidence to support that theory: After Annika played in 2003, Teaching Professional Suzy Whaley “qualified” to play in the 2003 Hartford Tournament through the Connecticut PGA Section. This women had tried and **failed** to qualify for the LPGA. Her golf resume was not very good. Most of the so called experts were predicting predicting scores into the high 80’s at best for Suzy Whaley at the Hartford. To the surprise of everyone, Suzy shot respectable scores of 75-78. She finished pretty close to DFL but her scores were not embarrassing. For full disclosure, Suzy Whaley qualified for the Hartford tournament with andicap. She was competing against men pros but from a shorter set of tees. But, she did play the Hartford PGAT tournament from the same set of tees as the men. Yes, if the stars align to yield a freak of nature with incredible work ethic, I think a woman can be competitive with guys on the golf course and perhaps win a couple tournaments. Michelle Wie missed the cut by one shot in a PGAT Tournament. At the age of 14. She shot 71-68 on a PGAT golf course. FWIW, Michelle Wie was a much much better golfer before she turned pro at age 16. She is at best an average pro on the LPGA at the age of 23. I think if she had the 75% of the ambition, drive, and work ethic of Annika Sorenstam she could have qualified for the PGAT. But she got burned out and you can’t do it on talent alone. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/40 "2013-01-07T05:50:12Z")
> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > However, a big point people are ignoring in the tennis issue is that women tend to have more volleys per point then men. A 3 set women’s match can approach and even exceed the time it takes for a 5 set men’s match. A best-of-three match is unlikely to outlast a best-of-five regardless of the gender of the players - it can happen, it just doesn’t very often - and on average I don’t think the women play faster or hit more shots than the men do. I’m in favor of equal pay because they’re all playing the same sport. They’re being paid for achievement and for entertainment; they’re not being paid by the hour or for meeting a quota. ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204/41 "2013-01-07T06:07:15Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Debatable. Michelle Mouton did extremely well in a few seasons with the Audi rally team, and finished second in the world championship in 1982. And Shirley Muldowney won the NHRA (drag racing) Top Fuel championship three times. Agreed, and Shirley Muldowney gets a lot of respect among drag racers. I think that Shirley ranks below Garlits, Amato and Schumacher but three titles is nothing to shake a stick at. So yeah, I’ll say that she was an exception, but of all the racers out there, she’s a very small minority. My argument was that muscle mass, bodyfat etc. are not major factors in motorsports and females have a very even playing field. The results don’t reflect that they can compete equally. Rallying doesn’t get a lot of play in the USA. I doubt that most motorsports fans could tell you that Loeb is the champion. Which is astounding considering he has won it nine years in a row. I don’t expect anyone in the US except Audi geeks to know who Mouton was, and I’ve no knowledge of European attitudes toward her. She also never won a title. Loeb excelled, as did Mäkinen, Kankkunen and some others. Mouton was a bridesmaid. Once. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billie-jean-king-proved-that-women-were-at-least-as-good-as-men-at-sports/646204.md?page=3)